I would like to see it discussed on this board as well as see what kind of objective feedback a poll of the Jewish people in Israel would find the following idea:
Israel surrounded by contentious Muslim neighbors was a bad idea in 1947 as it remains as we've seen over the last 60 years to still be a bad one today.
So, what possible solutions might there be? I believe there is a simple one to ending the problems in the Middle East. Invite the Israelis to the U.S. and let the land go. I believe a majority of the Israelis as well as the Jews all over the world are sophisticated enough and 21st century enough to realize the land in Israel is no more holy than the land in NYC.
Please comment on this thinking out of the box that would end the middle east conflict. IT'S TIME TO ADMIT ISRAEL WAS A MISTAKE AND MOVE ON.
Even if my estimations are wrong about the Israelis regarding the holiness of the land, I believe the U.S. should say COME TO OUR COUNTRY OR YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN TO FORCE THE ISSUE AND HAVE THEM COME TO THE U.S.
With their great intellect and strong work ethic, rather than conscript their population for military service, they could conscript them for a great number of years to help secure our borders.
Abolishing the state of Israel is, first of all, extraordinarily impractical. Because of the near certainty of Jews being lynched in the absence of protection, every single one of the millions of Israel's Jews would have to leave. Do you have a cruise ship or plane that will seat seven million?
Your idea would also be a major and obvious victory for terrorist groups such as Hamas. It would punish the whole world by creating great incentive to use terrorism as a tactic.
Your modest proposal would be a huge blow to archaeology, anthropology and history. When Jordan held the Old City of Jerusalem, Jewish holy places were desecrated. Without the Israeli state in place, we would see graffiti on the Western Wall, and countless artifacts trashed.
The Jewish religion itself, focused as it is upon the land of Israel and the holy site where once our Temple stood, would suffer a devestating, perhaps even mortal blow. Perhaps you would see this as a good thing. Yet, despite your own sophomoric views of what "sophistication" means, many brilliant people in history have found truth and purpose in religion.
Your eagerness to employ Israelis en masse as border guards might perhaps be offensive, were it not so puzzling and distinctive. Kudos for originality.
Abolishing the state of Israel would be, finally, an appalling violation of any sane definition of justice. There are plenty of arguments with multiple reasonable sides about Israel's beginnings, its conduct, its wars and its society. There is plenty of room for intelligent people to differ quite passionately. But the idea that Jews have no claim at all where they have lived continuously since Biblical times -- or the idea that hatred and intolerance must be appeased -- truly boggles the mind.
I came to this website because I hoped Unity08 would be a legitimate movement, and not one more cyber-convention of crackpots. I still hope this will be the case.
I can only hope this offensive, juvenile post is merely a fluke.
Seth Chalmer
http://sethchalmer.blogspot.com
Your posting deserves an intelligent response - which I hope to provide ..
The Creation of a Jewish State was not a mistake - The Mistakes that were made were ...
1.Failure to recognize and work for - the simultaneous establishment of a Palestinian State ..
2.Even handed treatment and help to both States and Both Peoples - toward building peaceful and prosperous societies in both nations ..
Warnings went unheeded, unfortunately - as usual : the people with the power to do it right wouldn't listen to those best qualified to call the shots .
The situation was further complicated by the continued favoritism shown to Israel, that said, I am a supporter of Israel's right to exist - and thank God for its commitment to protecting the principals of Democracy ..
I have friends in virtually every country in the Middle East - I respect their history, the contributions they've made to the arts and sciences ,,
My regret is that all too few Americans - have had the opportunities I've had, to enjoy and appreciate their friendship ..
Being forced to play a subservient role to foreigners in your own land, is
is something Americans haven't YET had to experience : the people of every Nation that have had that experience - come to the bargaining table with hang ups that must be recognized and treated with understanding and compassion.
It's time the American Voters faced the truth about our System Of Government in this the 21ST Century ..
America is THE WORLD'S LARGEST BUSINESS ORGANIZATION - With Investments of One Kind Or Another In Every Nation On This Planet ..
The people Managing This Huge Enterprise For Us (Our Politicians) - Come From All Walks Of Life - All Types Of Backgrounds : VERY FEW POSSESS THE TYPE OF EDUCATION, TRAINING & EXPERIENCE IT TAKES - TO IDENTIFY AND SUPPORT THE RIGHT DECISIONS FOR PROTECTING OUR SOCIAL & ECONOMIC WELFARE & SECURITY ... you have but to look around you - watch what's happened to America in the past Three to Four Decades TO KNOW THIS ..
It's not their fault they were able to screw everything up - We didn't vet them for Wisdom, Dedication or Integrity .. We turned them loose with Keys to the Treasury, when things happened we didn't like we bitched like hell - did little else - and went back to enjoying the benefits of American Citizenship ..
This isn't about The Middle East, Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Dar fur OR AMERICA - it's about the evolution of this Planet we call earth - and America's Place In It ..
It's about having a World Leader that can Lend Wisdom, Dedication & Integrity - to the issues that affect us all ..
America is capable of providing that leadership - but first we have to eliminate the cancer that's invaded our Governing Body, and return to the principles that made this the most successful society of all time ..
With "Pete's Plan" - Unity08 can make that happen in 2024. (I promise)
Peter K (popo) Evans of Boynton Beach, Florida
This is one of the most difficult topics of our times, and must be looked at in a long historical context, and not how the mainstream media portrays it as simply a 4 week or 4 month, or 4 year long conflict. This goes back decades.
I am honestly afraid that we will never see peace in that region with co-existing arab and jewish states (although I hope we will). I do-not however propose that we disband the state of Israel as cqithinks wishes. I just don't think this would ever work, and a part of me feels that the Jews do have a right to this land.
One thing I highly disagree with however, is the lack of understanding of the arab/muslim viewpoint, and America's all out free pass that they give to Israel. The fact is that Israel has engaged in just as vile terroristic acts as any muslim state. One has the backing of America and the money of Western Capitalism, and the other are religious/ethnic groups with very little money.
It easy to lable the mighty Israeli army as fighting for freedom, and the arabs with ak-47s and small rockets as terrorists, but we must not fall into this way of thinking.
Israel MUST release it's 1000's of illegally detained lebanese and palestinian prisoners, it must recognize democratically elected government in these arab nations, it must end the occupation in lebanon (which has been in place much longer than this current conflict) and it must not destroy the nation of palestine by continuing to take over the west bank.
In turn the arab states MUST recognize the right for Israel to peacefully exist.
This is a link to a George Galloway interview on the Sky New Network. His viewpoints may be a bit extreme for some, but he seems to be much more aware of the historical context of this conflict than anyone in the mainstream media.
Where to begin? Having the rest of the World turn their backs on the Jews didn't stop WWII, and it won't buy peace now. And if the Holy Land isn't holy, ask the Muslims to relinquish their claim
First, the Israelis will never agree to this proposal and while I think America would easily and glad absorb the entire Jewish population of Israel today, this was most definitely not the case in 1947. On the eve of WW-II, our government had several opportunities to accept Jewish refugees from Europe and we generally turned them away. That a whole other story for another time.
Second, Israel was not so much created as it was recognized.
Jews have been moving back to the holy land since the 1870s. The Zionist movement dates back to the turn of the century and the horrific treatment of Jews during WW-II only accelerated the migration. By 1947, Jews had purchased, not stole, 85% of the land in Israel.
Following the UN resolution and partition in 1947, sporadic fighting broke out between the Jews and the Muslims inside Palestine and the surrounding countries of the Arab League attacked Israel. Israel won its war of independence and in the aftermath, about 711,000 (out of a population of 1,237,000) Arabs left Israel. Also following the 1948 war, 758,000-866,000 Jews left Arab lands and immigrated to Israel. The remaining Jewish population in these lands is less than 6,500 as of 2024.
Much, perhaps even most, of this emigration on both sides was involuntary. Meanwhile, the 420,000 Muslims who stayed in Israel enjoy full citizenship but are excused from military service. Their integration into society is not perfect but it's worth noting that the first (and only) suicide bombing carried out by an Israeli Arab occurred on September 9, 2024.
Nobody’s hands are entirely clean here. Both sides have legitimate grievances. Both side have committed despicable acts. Where do we go from here?
Here’s the bottom line – There are so many different nations, tribes and people throughout history and only so much land. Every square inch has been lost and captured, conquered and stolen many times over.
If we are ever going to have peace in this world, people everywhere are just going to have to accept their neighbors as they are and without regard to historical grudges.
Besides, does anyone think that caving in and rewarding Islamic terrorism is actually a pathway to peace?
--Vern
"Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people."
- Vice Adm. H.G. Rickover
Saying that Israel was a mistake and wanting the country to disband because a bunch of thug terrorists want to murder them is the ultimate in appeasement and cowardice.
Sadly enough it is not nonsense to those that propose it.
vry,
RET
fyi... scripture is clear on this... eventually (date unknown) Israel will move to the United States or be destroyed by a nuke from these organized criminals ... and now that day seems to grow closer because of the new weapons of terror (rockets)... regardless whether you think Israel should or should not be will not matter ... It will be the Israel people that must make the choice as it is written that they will perish if they do not move... Sure we would torch Syria and Iran and will stand behind the right of a nation to exist, but regardless, these beautiful people will be gone already ... - Earn Snyder
Author "$aving the bureaucracy - Killing the beast"
Modern Progressive Independent
www.appyp.com/fix_main.html
Had a connectivity meltdown while composing a response to this last night - will be brief this morning...
Israel is a capitalist democracy established under the Balfour treaty if memory serves, recognized by the UN and with no history of aggression against its neighbors. When it defends itself it does so robustly, although perhaps not robustly enough or in a sufficiently targeted manner in this most recent Lebananon/Hezbollah action. Unfortunately they seem not to be learning from our Iraq/Afghanistan mis-cues.
The argument over whether Israel should be where it is geographically is an academic one at thios point. Whether it will survive in place is a military question reserved to Israel and its neighbors, and ultimately in the community of nations as embodied in the U.N. which is toothless and therefor powerless by our own intentional design.
Allowing an inherently peaceful sovereign nation to be wiped out or suggesting it should be relocated for our convenience is not a viable or moral option.
Mark Greene
Texas Democrat in the Middle
Idiotic and bigoted ideas, such as the ones expressed here regarding Israel, are a chief reason why I will likely never join this Unity08 effort.
People who claim Israel has no right to exist would be well served by researching the history of the region. Israel existed as a nation as early as the 10th century BC. A Hebrew presence in what is now the Middle East goes back around 2024 years before that; Tell Mardikh, in Syria, is the site of the ancient city of Ebla. Written records from Ebla mention people and places whose names suggest a strong connection to the later Israelites- for example: ABRAMU (ABRAM), ESAUM (ESAU), ISMAEL (ISHMAEL), ISRAEL (ISRAEL) and YERUSALUUM (JERUSALEM).
The simple truth is that the Israelites/Jews have had a presence in the Middle East for thousands of years. In terms of History the Arabs/Moslems are squatters.
I believe there is no doubt that Israel has a right to that land. But I am also educated enough to know that Israel is not always right because they are the supposed "God's chosen people" according to Judeo-Christian beliefs. I believe Israel could find peace with these people if they leveled off their reactions. Sometimes there reactions are swift and more brutal than necessary....hence, Lebanon this past summer. However, they do have a right to protect themselves. Honestly, the root cause of this is not land, its not money, its not anything but religion. And that bothers me. Religion seems to be the root cause of all problems right now in the world, ye its intentions are supposedly peaceful. I believe religion combined with the poverty, and lack of education for people living in Palestine and surrounding Muslim countries contributes well to. Education and opportunity are the only thing that is going to be the cure all. When people have money and opportunity they dont care much for violence.
Religion perse has very very little to do it in my opinion. It comes down to power politics pure and simple! Some people have it. Other people want it. The "have-nots" will use religion and ideology and tribalisms and nationalisms and (fill in the blank)to get it. Religious ideology has little to do with it in the final analysis. What is constant is "Interests" - all nations and all peoples have it.
What is key here is to soberly and dispassionately start the process to determine those "interests" and the areasand systematically delineate the commonalities and noncommonalities and adjust policies accrdingly. THAT is the job of delineating a Grand Strategy that we have not done since the George Kennan days in the late 40's. We are long overdue! If we want to be successful in Unity and in this Country in this Century we need to focus less on Religions and Clashes of Civilizations and such and focus more on interests and a framework for incorporating them into a clear comprehensive internally consistent integrated Grand Strategy for the US in the 21st century. Unity 08 MUST, if it is to be any type of successful player, 1) stay away from any talk on Religions and such and 2) MUST focus on interests in discussions of Foreign Policy.
Yeah right....
Sell out the democracy in the region....
That REALLY serves America's best interest.
http://journals.aol.com/kweinschen/Veritas/
You are wrong - John is right on the money : This is all about power and control and until a grand strategy can be settled upon that all waring factions can live with - the powder keg will get bigger and closer to ingnition.
popo
Popo...you and John are wrong.
Israel is the ONLY democracy in the Middle East. Outing them only undermines America's credibility.
Also, Given the Islamic Jihadists name Israel the "little satan" and America the "big satan", it is IDIOTIC.
Unless, of course you believe all those Jewish conspiracy theories that Henry Ford and his ilk put forth.
http://journals.aol.com/kweinschen/Veritas/
During my tenure in International operations, I played a personal role in helping Israel to defend itself, I also believed at the time (and still do) - that there could be peace in the Middle East already if we had been more even handed in our treatment of The Palestine Problem.
The truth is - the Lack of Properly Trained and Schooled Diplomats, has more to do with the problems in the Middle East and Elsewhere - than anything else.
popo
Israel is NOT the problem. I've said before until there is another Sadat there will be no peace in the Mid East. All the diplomats in the world will not obviate that fact. it will be a holding action until that Sadat arises. That is where the diplomats can help. That and when the Palestinians realize that the best friend they have is Israel and certainly not the other Arab/Shiite powers who use the great Palestinian peoples plight for their own power ends.
This is stupidest idea I've heard yet.
Israel is only real ally the US has in the Middle East, yet cqithinks says we force them to give up their land (cut and run).
Of course, there are probably alot of bloggers on www.streetprophets.com that would agree with this ridiculous idea
http://www.streetprophets.com/story/2007/2/7/135224/0516
http://journals.aol.com/kweinschen/Veritas/
first of all it's not a stupid idea.. for one.. ever since it was made israel has caused war... the israeli soldiers beat women and children in palestine.. palestinians arent even allowed to practice law!!! in the court room they are judged by prejuduce judges who already have decided their fates before the trial starts!(most palestinians dont get an equal trial) did u know that there are 314 lebenese women and about 300 children in israeli prisons? holding women and children if they didnt do anything is against international law!but no one gives a shit about these people .... isreal was a mistake.... the U.S. keeps on talking about a two state solution but today on CNN the two countries Israel and U.S.A both denied any palestinian government!!! here is the link if you want to see it for yourself.... http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/02/18/mideast/
then there comes the issue of hamas... and hezbollah... both of the organizations fight for something noble.. when israel invaded lebanon.. the army wasnt strong enough to defend the country... so the people took it into it's own hands.. and formed hebollah to kick out israel.. and till now they have been successful in that mission. they are the only known force that has ever defeated israel and kick it out of the coutry... all israel does is create war...and it isnt cut and run.. now dont get me wrong .. i have nothing against jews, i have a couple jewish friends, but i do have something against israel as a country.. my whole family was in lebanon, and my grandma's house was bombed to the ground, and she doesn't have anything to do with hezbollah.. in conclusion... Isreal doesnt want peace.. it wasnt to take over all of palestine, and also lebanon.. the U.S. would do anything for israel.... which is this countries weakness... the U.S. would create a world war 3 just to protect israel a country that suppresses other people in other countries.
Look folks, we don't even control our own destiny yet - and you're arguing over other peoples rights ..
Let's get back to what I thought we were here for : To Work To Get Our Own Country Back !!
I've contributed positive programs - how about you guys and gals, coming up with some better ideas and options ??!!
popo
I'm sure noted anti-Semite Henry Ford would agree with above nonsense.
But not me.
http://journals.aol.com/kweinschen/Veritas/
Bring all the Jews back here so that we don't need slaves from Mexico for several decades ... heck they might even reproduce abundantly like the Mexicans do and save our nation from its sure-fate of poverty, slavery and gang-lords.
I also think that history would be much better if Hitler had left the Jews alone during WWII. At the time "everyone" hated Jews, so over time every country would find their own ways to "chasten" them but most important is the Middle East.
Britain, Spain, France, Germany and who knows how many others had occupied the Arab countries. If the UN had not created Israel and mandated that these lands be made 'independent', then our world would be totally different and global terrorism would not exist.
Unfortunately I think that nukes would have been used in war many many times if the UN had not "worked toward peaceful independent resolution" in the 50's.
Come on! How crazy this is! I'm too scared to try rolling back the hands of time. We have to work from where we are. As long as China, Russia, France and Germany are actively supporting the Palestinians (as well as the Arab countries that also support Palestine), do you really think we can just step aside?
Offering to "let" the Jews come here instead of facing certain death in occupied Palestine is nice, but this would not help me sleep at night.
I think the UN needs some testicles and mandate that no one can provide munitions to any of these idiot 17th century countries or Israel. Financial support should be sent to the UN and hopefully the UN will find a way to fairly distribute it to all those countries - based on populous, not on need.
Short of that, this is a wasted topic.
zDougie
Are you NUTS!!!!!! Yeah give up your country that you have fought and bleed for. Give me a break. Get a clue!
what an absolutely dumb idea. forest gump could have come up with something better than that. abandon one of our best friends in the world for what so a bunch of crazies can have a small strip of land. not!
speaking on behalf of forrest, i resent that comment
I agree blueduck! The problem in the Mid East is Power Politics pure and simple and blaming one state/peoples for all the accumulated ills is a fantasy. Isrealis here to stay and they are NOT the problem. Look! There are jerks and A****** on BOTH sides of this key question. I just think there are a bit more of those types on the Anti-Israel rejectionist side why love to live their myths and accumulated pathologies. what was it Patrick Moynihan that said.. "Everybody is entitled to their own opinions, but nobody is entitled to their own facts" To that end see post...
http://unity08.com/node/71#comment-18204
It's real strange but the Syrians and Iranians could not care in the least for a Palestinian State. The Israelis have offered several times to the Palestinians much more than any Arab Mid-East country offered them (Jordan, Egypt, Saudi, Syria, Iran, Iraq) in the last 50 years esp in 2024. A lot of those non-Isreali Mid East states have a vested interest in never settling for a 2 state solution. My hope is that the great Palestinian peoples will realize that Israel is NOT going away and that their best friends in the Mid East are in fact the Israelis themselves! If the Palestinians and Israelis would ever solved their various disputes (other countries allow them to)and work together, with their accumulated intellect and expertise and entrpreneurship they could take over the world economically/socially/culturally -and provide a political example for all to emulate. Would be the BEST way to put the kibosh on the jihadi/salafi/hirabist "bandwagon" effect extant inte Arab World. Above all, BOTH sides all need to give up their maximalist revanchist irredentist dreams to save their children and get this sucker resolved as much as possible!
What we need to do is to have some committed intelligent leadership to meet with ALL parties to the disputes, with everything on the table, and knock some heads together with effective full-court-press diplomacy to get this sucker solved (if things ever get solved in the Mideast)! Israel is even out in front of the US on this point in wanting to settle things but as Sadat realized (God Bless Sadat!) the US holds 95% of the cards.
And I would offer up a nice carrot for settling up and decently compromising on all issues - I would offer up a Big Marshall Plan with substantial funding from the rich parties to get the Palestinians on their feet. Our Unity candidate needs to have the expertise to make the attempt. Bush is just too incompetent to bring that about. It may cost a bit, but given the alternative it would be Bargain Basement!!
We get a one sided view of Israeli relations in that region. Yes, they are hostile to their neighbors. Do we hear about it on the disinformation box. Of course not. They put the Palestinians in a caged in police state and I would NEVER send my sons to fight Israels wars. I am not a religious person though I do believe in a creator. I strongly believe that the creator does not endorse stealing of land and murder. Does anyone realize that Israel has more spies and more influence in the US than any other country?
Questions ..
1. Why did you join Unity08 ??
2. Is there anything you like about America ??
3. Israel is our staunchest ally and our eyes and ears in the Region, many Israeli's died to establish and preserve a Democratic State - Israelis are of The Jewish Faith - what Israeli did you harm to make you so bitter about the Jews ??
Please, answer these three questions intelligently and with sincerity - maybe we can find a way to get you to see things in a better and more positive light.
No I'm not Jewish - and yes I'm qualified to speak on the subject, in my business I have helped both Muslims and Israelis and have many friends in both camps.
I'll wait to see your answer ..
Oh and by the way - if you want to know how I feel about UNITY08 and America .. click on www.america-21stcentury.com And That Goes For James Cook, David Farrar and any would be saboteurs in the mix !!
Peter K. Evans (popo)
cqithinks, I have to assume your topic was meant as a joke, or I'm really needing to know you don't live anywhere near Wisconsin. This is the absolute stupidest thing I've ever seen suggested on the topic, and that's only because our media would never allow the printing or mention of the reverse alternative. I'm not (to my knowledge; I'm adopted) a Jew, nor am I a regularly practicing Christian. The most egregious violations of basic human decency in all this controversy have been done unto, not by, the Jews. I say that as a relatively uninterested bystander who couldn't care less whether Buddhists or Devil-worshippers took the place over from the religious standpoint.
Where do you live? Let's call your town Israel, so I can claim Palestinian status and come take it from you. Not buying that? Why, because you never took the place from Muslims? True, but your ancestors stole it from the Native Americans who once owned it. I say, what's good for the goose is good for the gander as well. I command you to take your property title to the nearest Native American tribe and give it to them, witnessed by a Notary Public, before you ever open your mouth theoretically or otherwise on this topic again. Anything less makes you a cheap hypocritical loudmouth, and I do not want to hear anything more from you.
Now that you're pissed, pull your head out of your ass and look around; this is the real world, not your ivory navel-gazing tower. The one thing that has gotten this country into more trouble over the last two centuries than anything else is this; allowing totally unrealistic wishful thinking to drive the debate over governmental policies, foreign or domestic. Don't want to donate your house to the local Indians? Why should the Israelis do the same for the Palestinians? When you get down to it, much of that land already belonged to Jews BEFORE THEY WERE GIVEN UN SANCTION TO CREATE A COUNTRY OUT OF IT. They'd bought it from the Turkish landlords that stole it from the Palestinians, Jew/Muslim/Christian, who'd owned it before. Prior to the Turks, it was owned by Egyptians, Kurds, Syrians, Iranians, Byzantine Greeks, Romans, Macedonian Greeks, Assyrians, Babylonians and Jews. Jews all through these other periods, for brief periods in between and for very long stretches before the Macedonians and before the Assyrians. If the many different sources I have read on the subject are to be trusted, there really wasn't any difference between Jews and Palestinians until about 1200 BC. And the Palestinians of today bear no more blood relation to those ancestors than modern Jews do; every regime that ever conquered the region practiced some form of forced resettlement or other, to a lesser or near-universal extent. There is no clear title, a thing which can be said about nearly every square foot of this planet currently inhabited.
I like John Milligan's idea far better.
Phil Rowlands, Stoughton WI
1st Recon Bn., 1st Mar. Div. `82-`86
My opinion is that if you don't support an idea, don't respond to it and it will slide away. That is the best I can come up with in the shoutbox where anyone with a very unmoderate opinion can post something.
Because when you do post replies to crazy topic or other posts, it starts an arguement and brings even more attention to the craziness.
Maybe you haven't been around long enough in the shoutbox to remember the American Nazi party posts.
You mentioned the American Nazi Party posts; true, I wasn't around when they were current. Yet I have to wonder; if Germans had responded more frequently to the lunatic fringe that ended up ruling them, would Nazism ever have taken hold? I have had go-rounds with Jeff C, Betty327 and others that have allowed both sides of an argument to present themselves. Mixed in, of course, with a little gratuitous "no yer stoopid"! The healthy debate of ideas and philosophies has been reduced to name-calling in our political system and society in large part, but why can't we resurrect it? Every time someone comes out with a crazy idea, and no-one refutes it, several other people start to wonder if it's true. Allow that to continue long enough and you have a non-scientist former-politician testifying before Congress about a non-existent man-spawned phenomenon dubbed Global Warming. Or the takeover of a nation by a collection of whackos that believes Jews should be exterminated.
Phil Rowlands, Stoughton WI
1st Recon Bn., 1st Mar. Div. `82-`86
The basic problem in the Middle East is the basic premise that underlies the concept of Zionism, i.e. that some mysterious entity known as "God" promised all of the "Holy Land" to us, the Jewish people. Not only is this absurd on the face of it, but it is also absurd to think that those who are not Jewish in the so-called "Holy Land" are ever going to accept this notion.
As Americans, we demand for ourselves the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If we demand this for ouselves then we are honor bound to demand this for all people whatever their religion or ethnicity.
Those Zionists who deny the Palestinian people their rights are really just Jewish jihadists, as murderous and vicious as their pseudo religious counterparts in the Arab world, the Islamic jihadists.
Instead of two states, Palestinian and Israeli, it makes much more sense to push for the establishment of one country in the area known as Palestine, a democracy, where the people choose their own leaders and write their own laws. A two state solution, embedded as it would be with lethal religious differences, would be doomed from the start. A single state, modeled after those in the Americas and Europe, democracies and not theocracies, would have a better chance to achieve lasting peace in the area.
The irony is that the original Zionists aimed at establishing a country where Jews, after having been persecuted for centuries, would finally find a place where they would be safe and secure in their own land. The reality is that the one place in the world where a Jew is most likely to be killed just for being Jewish is in that Zionist creation, the state of Israel. Makes you think!
A good history of Zionists and Zionism
http://www.rense.com/general71/zzon.htm
Do a search on Samuel Untermyer. He had a huge distinction in history as a man who not only blackmailed Woodrow Wilson but also took a scalawag named Cyrus Scofied, of Scofield Bible fame, under his wing to change American Christians perceptions of Jews and Israel.
Israel could exist all it wants. I don't see why the US needs to support it.
=€K=
US support is in many ways because of strategic interest, and this is at the base whether it is morally correct or not. By supporting the alliance with Israel, we have a continuing 'beach head' should things go terribly wrong in the middle east and a regional war erupted. While we now have troops in both Iraq and Afghanistan, this may not be the case for the long term, so this alliance provides us more flexibility strategically.
Congressman & presidential candidate warns of economic collapse precipitated by bombing of Iran
Presidential candidate Ron Paul says the U.S. is in "great danger" of a staged terror attack or a Gulf of Tonkin style provocation while also warning that a major collapse of the American economy is on the horizon and could be precipitated by the bombing of Iran and the closure of the Persian Gulf.
Speaking to The Alex Jones Show, the Texas Congressman was asked his opinion on Cindy Sheehan's recent comments that the U.S. is in danger of a staged terror attack or a Gulf of Tonkin style provocation that will validate the Neo-Con agenda and lead to the implementation of the infrastructure of martial law that Bush recently signed into law via executive order, as well as public pronouncements from prominent officials that the West needs terrorism to save a doomed foreign policy.
"I think we're in great danger of it," responded the Congressman, "We're in danger in many ways, the attack on our civil liberties here at home, the foreign policy that's in shambles and our obligations overseas and commitment which endangers our troops and our national defense."
"Every day we're in worse shape and right now there's an orchestrated effort to blame the Iranians for everything that's gone wrong in Iraq and we're quite concerned that the attack will be on Iran and that will jeopardize so many more of our troops, so I would say that we're in much greater danger than we even were four or five years ago," asserted Paul.
The presidential candidate expressed his despair that the situation in Iraq will not change until there is a total collapse of the American economy.
"There's no way we can afford what we're doing, whether it's domestic spending or the international spending and very few people talk about the real cost of this economically speaking....this is unsustainable and it will be a threat to our dollar," said Paul, adding that the onset of the meltdown could be sparked by the bombing of Iran and the closure of the Persian Gulf.
The Congressman added that the collapse was in its early stages with the major indication being a reduction in the living standard of middle class Americans but that "one single major world event" could change things overnight and precipitate a major downturn.
Paul added that there had "not been a national discussion on monetary policy in many many years" and the increasingly bleak outlook for the U.S. economy was also bringing more attention to the solutions the Congressman has proposed for reducing the burden of the mammoth national deficit.
Paul said that national and world events, especially the degrading situation in Iraq, were attracting support for his presidential campaign due to his resolute position on embracing a non-interventionist foreign policy.
The Congressman concluded by surmising that record lows in approval ratings for Bush, Cheney and Congress showed that, "The American people are alive and well and disgusted yet they haven't had good alternatives....it's justifiable, they are looking for true answers and options and quite frankly I think that's probably one of the reasons why our campaign is growing by leaps and bounds right now."
I think it is appropriate to say that my present ideal is to have Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul as Presidential and Vice Presidential candidates for 2024.
The fact that Israel is the only democratic goverment working in the Middle east show a lot. It shows that the Arabs don't want our goverment. Why keep on imposing? It'll only add to the problem.
Kick the Israels out of Israel and bring them here. Then the palistanians will get their land back.
Who cares if the Arabs aren't appreciative of this. It'll just be removing some of the logs out of the fire that is the middle east.
Yes, Isreal treats their Arab citizens much much better with more dignity than most Arab governments treat their own citizens. What matters is not the form of government but a government's true commitment to its people's dignity esp the minority. On that score Israel is heads and tails above the rest in that area! One thing everybody might as well be sure of now - Israel is there to stay thank god!
And until there is another Sadat, until the Palestinian people see how they have been used by the other Arab nations and jihadis/salafis, and until the militant Islamist (and non- Islamist) maximalists insurgents from Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, Islamic Jihad, PFLPC and PFLPC-GC realize that Israel will not go away, THEN after all that there may be a fair chance for peace to occur in that neck of the woods.
But I fear the REAL battle we are all missing here folks on the Israel question is the immensity and threat the growing Sunni-Shiite divide poses to the region and beyond. That divide is much more threatening than anything involving Israel. Much like the Sino-Soviet rift that we belatedly realized (at the cost of getting sucked needlessly into Viet Nam) about 15 years too late, I hope we are quicker to grasp this Sunni-Shiite rift in time to adjust and adopta a cogent Grand Strategy accordingly into a realistic one.
DC - 3rd ward - milligansstew08@yahoo.com
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
With all due respect, that is insanity and it's obvious that you know next to nothing about Israel or the history of the Jews. It's also obvious that you have either no faith or you are muslim. The land of Israel was given to them by God in the Torrah. One thing is for sure, they aren't going anywhere. Not that it means anything to you but the Holy Scriptures say "I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you." With the mindset you have, I don't expect you to agree or understand.
I firmly believe that the State of Israel has and always will have the right to exist, and to suggest that it was a bad idea 60 years ago or yesterday is ludicris. The land is Holy to them and that is their home and we should continue to support them. I know that many people believe we should turn on Israel and leave them on their own but this is a major mistake and a course we cannot afford to take.
The Democrats have been very successful over the last two and one-half years making light of the terrorist situation and trying to destroy the Bush Administration. They would like us to abandon our mideast allies and Israel is one of our allies. Yes, we do give them billions in aid but they give us a anchor of support against the thugs who use terror as a means of war. Don't be mistaken my friends, if Isarael should fall, the shockwaves will be felt all over the world. God Bless USA and Isreal
I think you need to learn about the history of the region and the Zionist movement. When the Brits took over the Ottoman Empire, they divided a region that the Romans had called "Palestine." 80% was given to some rich Arab family and named TransJordan. The remaining 20% was set aside for a proposed Jewish state. The anti-Jewish grand mufti didn't like the idea of Jews in his midst, so he called for riots against Jewish immigrants. That was in 1920, and Israel has been on the front line of the war on terror ever since.
Let's suppose you do disband the state of Israel. Where would like them to go? Do you think the US would accept the influx of 5.5 million people? Or Canada or South Africa? Or maybe they should return to Europe to await the next Holocaust. Ending Israel would not end terrorism; it would reward and empower the terrorists, because it will show the terrorists that violence against civilians will give them whatever they want.
Your theory that "the land in Israel is no more holy than the land in NYC" is not only wrong, but offensive. It is where Judaism began. It is where all of the Jewish holy sites are. It is from where the Romans forced the Jews into Diaspora, subjecting them to nearly 2024 years of pogroms.
Some reading for you:
http://www.palestinefacts.org
http://www.virtualjewishlibrary.org
http://www.jewishworldreview.com
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you're reading it in English, thank a veteran.
The seed of the expanionist, apartheid state of Israel was initially blackmailed into existence in 1917 with the signing of the Balfour Declaration in exchange for Lord Rothchild's agents getting the US into WWI to defeat the Germans for the British. The declaration was made in a letter from Arthur James Balfour (Foreign Secretary) to Lord Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation, a private Zionist organization. What has followed is the longest running series of black flag operations in history to incriminate Arabs and provide a pretext for the theft of more and more land and it is the Palestininans who have been on the front line ever since.
The "jews" in Israel today are almost all Ashkenazi Jews, not blood descendants of the Israelites. Many jews are not Zionists and many detest Zionism. The Zionists are the root cause of many of the problems in the US today like the neocons who's ranks are filled with Zionists. The problem for us is that many American Christians believe that today's Israel is the same one in the Bible, thanks primarily to a guy named Scofield (Scofield Bible) and his sugar daddy blackmailer of President Woodrow Wilson one Samuel Untermyer. Untermyer was also one of the key figures in establishing the unconstitutonal Federal Reserve. If Christians would take a good look at the Talmud they would have a whole different view of the term Judeo-Christian and world politics.
Let me remind the forum of HC's history of supporting a known Neo-Nazi on the Unity08 shoutbox:
http://unity08.com/node/1382#22921
Because of your support for Ernst Zundel, you have no credibility on the subject of Israel.
Jeff C
leikec@yahoo.com
I received this e-mail a couple of weeks ago and think that the information is well presented and accurate. I think everyone, well, except for HC because of his extreme hatred for Jews, will agree with this.
This is an excellent presentation of the real history and background of the Arab-Israeli conflict, minus Arab propaganda lies. A dose of truth that should be taken by everyone. In fact, it's a good reminder to everyone just what happened here, and what continues to happen.
http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened
Israel allows Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and dozens of others to pray as they see fit, or not at all. Arab citizens in Israel are given full and equal rights, and have proportional representation in the Knesset. The PLO has declared that no Jew born after 1917 would ever be a citizen of a "Palestinian" state, and Hamas publically expresses its desire to slaughter every Jew in the world. Who practices apartheid? I keep forgetting.
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you're reading it in English, thank a veteran.
Methinks, it'd be wiser to save your energy and enthusiasm on Israel, for confronting the real boogeymen.
Believe you me, you read up on the Arab states from say, 1940's and onward, and you will know.
For instance, Palestinians were and are used by the arab extremists, to "sting like a bee" all around the region, forcing neighbors to retaliate. Palestinians are a pawn, in other words.
What would US benefit from throwing Israel to Islamists? Well, quite a few trees would be saved from reducing the number of anti-Israeli UN resolutions. That is about it. But wasting paper is a UN problem, not US problem.
Current US struggle, costing us blood and treasure, with Middle-Eastern Muslim nations are not about Israel at all.
It is about Muslim underdeveloped nations beeng supercharged by easy money from oil and by Medeival imperialistic philosophy of the Koran. First, Saddam had started to build his own Khaliphate fighting Iran, then he decided to build it grabbing Kuwait and US had to step up to protect Kuwait and its oil from falling into hands of a sigle dictator. At the same time, Saudi Wahhabi Muslims took the text of the Koran literaly and decided to start Jihad against USA to push US troops off the Gulf and to pocket Saudi oil revenue along the way.
There is no Israel in this picture of conflict we are involved right now.
So, what should be admitted as a mistake to take out the root of the conflict?
Islam was a mistake? Oil fields had to be taken from Arabs by force? Politicaly correct version of the Koran should be printed and the original version should be rated "R" and forbidden at least to minors and mentaly unstable adults?
shleym2007,
I don't have any intelligent comment to add to this thread...BUT you're funny!!!
Quote: Politically correct version of the Koran should be printed and the original version should be rated "R" and forbidden at least to minors and mentaly unstable adults?
Ya know, although the humor in that line is undeniable, its exactly the truth.
I've often said, regardless of differing religous methods if we could just get everybody in the world on board with just half of the 10 commandments we'd all be a lot better off....just don't violate #6, #7, #8, #9 and #10.
Interesting thread.
Gary Spicuzza
Copyright 1956
No Rights Reserved
With all the scholars on this thread maybe someone could explain. Why Palestinians still live in refugee camps?