Good Idea or Bad Idea?
I think they have a place in a society where atheism has become a state-sanctioned religion (and Christianity can be used to show "criminal intent")
Here is a commentary by a libertarian columnist that supports them and describes the new school voucher program just passed in Utah.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/columnists/vassilaros/s_495885.html
Education needs to priority agenda item in this election. Good education is critical to the long term success of this country. I like Milton Friedman's ideas in this area. You can read them at http://www.friedmanfoundation.org/schoolchoice/
While I'm no big fan of Freidman, his ideas on this subject do have a lot of merit.
Alvin Toffler has identifed America's Education system as one of the biggest problems facing America's future.
http://journals.aol.com/kweinschen/Veritas/
Can I get my road vouchers - I live on a gravel road.
I want my Fire Protection vouchers - I have to pay more for insurance because it is a long way to the nearest Fire department.
Where does it end?
NO VOUCHERS.......
Yes, aoe, that's exactly what happens when eventually more and more houses are built up around you. They too will pay more in property taxes and pretty soon, guess what....a fire station will be built right in your area...a perfect example of vouchers at work. Thank you.
ex animo
davidfarrar
I think that vouchers are a bad idea, and undermine the idea of public schooling. If all of the money spent for the vouchers was instead used to better the school, we would have less need for vouchers.
The idea of using vouchers is just a policy of giving up. Instead of fixing a public schooling system that has problems, the vouchers would just offer another way, while those who didn't get approved for vouchers, or who hope that the school will eventually have an effort to improve it and so stay, are stuck in schools that are getting worse and worse.
As I said, Haldir, our public schools were failing long before the idea of vouchers ever arrived on the scene. It is to address that failure we need to seriously look at what vouchers can do to significantly improve public education today. But rather than reiterate my point about the State playing both the role of regulator and producer on public education today, let me simply focus on your problem with vouchers. You seem to think that, somehow, vouchers take public education funds out of our present state school system, nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, vouches directly lead to a lessening of our presenting overcrowding, and inject a much needed dose of competition between the State producers of public education. In short, as long a vouchers also remove the student from an overcrowded classroom, State schooling has gained.
ex animo
davidfarrar
We should spend the money to find out why public schools are not working and fix them. I have an idea that part of the reason is that teachers pay is not high enough to attract the best candidates for the job.
I believe the second major reason is the inability of teachers to discipline students. A two-prong attack on this problem is needed - holding both children and parents accountable. One solution is to have cameras in the classroom and halls so that when parents question the teacher's veracity about their child's behavior, the teacher can show them the film of their child's behavior. If a child keeps misbehaving they should be home for progressively longer periods of time. Also, parents shold be fined when their child keeps misbehaving and when they do not come to pick up a suspended child. Make parents the child's disciplinarian - not the school.
I know that long suspensions do not help a child learn but they do help the children that remain in schoool learn.
First -- and I really don't want to get on my soapbox here, but what many think of and refer to as "public education" is not, in fact, public education, but state schooling. Public education has to do with educating the public, to which many, myself included, believe our state schools are failing miserably at, and at increasing cost, I might add. Our State schools are failing, and will continue to fail, again, at increasing cost in terms of their actual educating potential due largely to systemic reasons, which is essentially Milton Friedman's point. Simply put, the State, as regulator, cannot also act as the producer of public education. In order to achieve positive, significant changes in the result of our public educational system today, we need to return the State to its proper role in public education as the regulator of the producers of public education. There, I believe I have successfully summed up why education vouchers are so important to improving public education in this country.
For a quick example of this principle in action, go to any school in any state school system and make a quick inspection of their firefighting apparatus...use your local city or county ordinance pertaining to private schools firefighting rules and regulations as your guide. Most, if not all, of our State schools will fail. Why? Because state schools govern themselves when it comes to firefighting rules and regulation within the school system. The same principle applies to the production of education in state schools. It is the flow-of power problem within the system that is at the heart of state school failing. The direct consumers of state schools are not empowered.
ex animo
davidfarrar
It used to be that public schools were meant to prepare young citizens to be good citizens. That is, they would graduate with enough knowledge to live within our system of government without having to resort to breaking the law to gain independence (to "break free" into adult life so to speak). What public schooling has become is a system of daycare where kids are forced to sit through "lessons" mandated by the lowest common denominator whilst being treated like prisoners.
You cannot expect greatness as an outcome from such a system. There is only mediocrity and lucky exceptions.
If we truly want to overhaul our educational system school vouchers probably won't work because everyone will want to send their kids to private schools and thus; they will end up as nothing more than a subsidy that increases costs in the long run (like all subsidies). The only way to fix the system is to re-think what we want our kids to "learn" before they're allowed to live on their own.
We all know that parents are just about as reliable as schools are in educating their children these days. So saying "it should be up to the parents" isn't really that much different than saying, "it should be up to the government." My personal opinion is that school has become mostly useless precisely because schools are graded on too few subjects. Math and reading are merely components to a much larger ideal.
We need well-rounded citizens that can not only read (and understand) a newspaper and calculate a tip at a restaurant, but can also point out the United States on a map of the world, know how diseases are transmitted (particularly STDs), and know that Congress is currently being run by special interests (hah!).
In essence, school needs to go back to preparing kids for life and not preparing kids for college. Who in their right mind thinks that college is like "real life"?!?
-Riskable
"If you elect leaders that act irresponsibly toward nature you'll find that irresponsibility is the nature of our leaders."
A lot of people don't like the v-word (vouchers), but regardless of what name you want to give school choice, if we ever hope to truly reform education, we have to do away with the overpriced, poor-performing, one-size-fits-all monopoly that we currently have. Compare our k-12 system with other countries. Embarassing, right? Okay, now compare our preschools and our colleges to other countries. We're suddenly #1. The difference is that preschools and colleges aren't run by government monopolies and don't try to be all things to all people. Preschools and colleges offer various subjects, different educational philosophies, and a variety of schedules and distance learning options. There are programs for every conceivable type of student. Even when publically funded, the choice of school is completely left to parents and students, without district boundaries and without regard to whether the preschool or college is public or private, religious or secular.
It's a great system. Now we need to apply it to our K-12 system. There are a lot of great ideas in this forum about education. But the bottom line is what would be best for one person would not be best for me and vice versa. Any solution that doesn't address this is simply adding to the problem.
And if we refuse to offer parents choices within the public system, then we at least need to decrease the resultant fiancial burden of seeking choices in the private sector. We need to make private school tuition and homeschool programs and materials all tax deductible. But what we're doing now, trapping people in expensive, failing systems that self-respecting parents can't even use in good conscience, absolutely must stop.
Stop all the anguish, arguing and animus.
Let the parents choose the appropriate school for their child. Have the state $$$ follow the kid. Have the parent make up the cost difference if the selected school charges more than the state funding.
Many states have conducted the costing out study which identifies what is costs to educate a child adequately to teh state's standards. The states should provide the amount deemed appropriate based on the study mindful of the state's economics and strategic goals.
Get the Feds out of education. That would abolish NCLB which should bring cheers from teachers. This will also end the Feds direction of special education.
For most students, this will mean continuing at the local, bricks and mortar public school.
For those who desire something more, there are alternatives. The money should go straight from the state to the public or alt schools. Charter schools and home schoolers should be governed by the state's department of education, rather than the local public school district.
Alternative schools could be charter, homeschool, cyber, or private.
The state should set the base curriculum and make it readily available via public libraries and the Internet. They would provide, at no cost, tests that help parents gauge their child's progress towards achieving the standards, each year. To graduate the student must pass the final tests in the state's standards related to its graduation requirements.
Critics of this plan will say that people will choose the alternatives. If they do, then class sizes will fall in the public school. With smaller classes one complaint of teachers is addressed. Class size is one reason teachers frequently point to this as a reason for poor student performance.
The students who do not want to be there and the hostile parents will change schools. They will no longer be the public school's problem. This will permit the bricks and mortar public school teachers to devote their expetise and efforts to the students who are there.
Because they have chosen the school and they will be making a financial investment, parents will be more vested in their child's education. They will supervise and encourage their child to do their school work.
This plan gives parents and children the opportunity to follow a STUDENT centered education plan. Parents who believe that school should be about rigorous academics, can seek that kind of education for their children. They will no longer make demands that the public school raise rigor.
Gifted children can move forward according to their abilities rather than the districts' agendas.
Parents who value a "whole person" program that does "a little of a lot" with a vague, tangential focus on the long term success of the student, can select that kind of program.
Public schools can operate as they have for the past century. Parents can choose what is best for their child. The feds get out. The state assumes oversight of nonpublic school entities. Teachers' major complaints are addressed.
Every one is a winner.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" Benjamin Franklin
The free market ALWAYS works. Parents/students with options will force schools and teachers to compete.
Get the federal government out of the picture, and let the states become the laboratories they were ment to be.
One of my biggest problems with vouchers or choice programs is that they really do nothing to address those students with the highest needs. A voucher program will only work for those students whose parents care enough about their educations to transfer them out of a failing school. Failing schools will continue to fail because they will be left with less funding (class sizes will not be reduced as staffing will need to be reduced), yet they serve students with the highest need. Other than that, it's a great program for those who have the advantage of parents who value education. Those children are already able to succeed because of the support they receive at home. Michigan has a schools of choice program. You can go to any other public or charter school and take the state funding with the child to the next district. How are Detroit's schools doing? Flint? Grand Rapids? How many of those students and parents take advantage of the "choice."
Right now, in the worst school districts, motivated, bright students are trapped in unsafe, poor-performing schools unless they can afford private school. Yes, these districts tend to have cultural and socioeconomic problems, most of which cannot be fixed by public education. But within the statistics are thousands of children who are being forced into schools that do not allow for success.
Right now, in Indianapolis (one of the worst districts in the country), there is a privately funded charity (Choice Grant) that helps poor students go to their choice of school within the county, private or public, regardless of district lines. This program is an amazing success. The students who escape Indianapolis Public Schools are doing great. No, the ones still going to IPS aren't doing so great. That's sad. We shouldn't give up on those students. But if we can throw a lifeboat to some, we should be doing so. Why is it more noble to let them all drown?
I disagree. I think they do the very most for the people with the biggest needs. Democrats called vouchers "racist" or "anti-poor", but the people most interested in them were minorities and poor single parents. How many parents don't want their kids to have the best possible future?
It's also not impossible to believe that there are kids who will take home information and paperwork on a voucher school and convince their parents to let them go. I know my kids petitioned me on a regular basis to go to different schools.
And even if it weren't the case, do you deny everyone because a few aren't paying attention? That's not terribly fair either.
A Democrat seeks complex solution to simple problems
A Republican seeks simple solutions to complex problems
A reasonable person seeks simple solutions for solvable problems
The public schools are a failure and have been a failure for over forty years. They are proped up by politicians looking for votes, teachers unions striking for jobs and parents that think the public school system is a glorified baby sitter. I believe it is a glorified baby sitter. No matter how much money you throw at this failed system it will not improve. I went to a school that had fifty children in a class. We had to share textbooks. I was able to take home a math book every other night and every other weekend. When I was in 8th grade all of the students were reading at a college level. If we had the money 80% of the kids I graduated from High school with could of excelled in college. That was long ago and far away ( catholic school in the 60s). With all the "experts " out there some one needs to explain to me how a catholic school today can pump out doctors and lawyers for half the cost of a public school? How a majority of public school graduating students require remedial math and reading to go to college? Why parents are denied a choice of education plans by a government that is supposed to belong to them? I heard other comments that the parents don't care and it is discrimination. No the system is broken and the only way to fix it is competition with private schools or trash the whole system and fire all the teachers and administrators. We need to be in charge not the unions the politicians or the feeel good social engineering crowd.
I make a motion that Unity08 adopt as one of its educational planks its support for public school vouchers.
Do I have a second?
If I get a second to this motion, please register your support, or lack of support, for this motion by appropriately marking the five stars.
Thank you for your leadership.
ex animo
davidfarrar
I second that motion!
I'm in Davidfarrar. The only monopoly that ever worked was the phone company. The government made sure they broke that up. Competion is required to improve the schools.
David,
You live in a paranoid fantasy world. You keep alluding to a state-sponsored religion of either atheism or secularism. This is silly. You also imply that Christians are under attack by this government. That would be very strange since the government is manned by well over 90% Christian members. Based on this suggestions fallacious premise I think U'08 should reject it out of hand.
--Think also of the comfort and rights of others
This message is in response to Dylan Voltaire's post:Problem with Reality
Criticism for criticism sake serves no purpose here, Mr. Voltaire. I would hope you would have the ability and understanding of the subject matter at hand to offer your own solution.
ex animo
davidfarrar
Our purpose is to have serious discussions of the issues, but you keep introducing jejune arguments based on a delusional notion that Christianity requires special protection from the government.
Vouchers have failed in places like Milwaukee. Vouchers take away hope in local schools by leaving them with the most disadvantaged and unmotivated students while those with any priveledge flee. It is an elitist plan. It benefits only those who can come close to affording a private school.
The real solution to changing the learning environment for all of our students must begin with a mandate that public schools conform to small class sizes. Young students do not learn well in a class of thirty-five. Teachers cannot teach students effectively when they have upwards to ninety students to teach.
I understand your motivation for vouchers. It has more to do with your desire to manipulate young minds so that they buy into the Christian delusion without questioning.
--Think also of the comfort and rights of others
Are you seriously suggesting that we don't need to allow students to escape bad districts, that instead, simply shrinking class sizes will solve the problems?
I'm in the Indianapolis Public School district (one of the worst in the country), and the teacher-to-student ratio is like 1:18. The problem isn't class size. The problems are numerous and complex, and most of them can't even be solved inside of the school because they are more cultural and behavioral. But what CAN be solved inside the school is protecting those who ARE interested in learning. And you're absolutely wrong that vouchers don't help the poorest, because they do! There is a privately-funded program in Indianapolis that helps kids escape IPS, and you have to qualify for free lunch in order to receive the grant. The program is very, very successful. And in Indianapolis, a quality private education costs about 1/2 of what an unsafe, unsuccessful education at the district school costs. So people are spending MORE tax money to keep good students drowning in the poor system. Why? Who is comforted by that? Whose rights are served by that?
And it's laughable that you accuse voucher-supporters of having a "desire to manipulation young minds so that they buy into the Christian delusion without questioning." It's exactly the opposite. Vouchers put control of education back into the hands of parents where they belong, without promoting one religion/philosophy or educational method or schedule or calendar, or class-size or district lines, or whatever other factor. Voucher-opposers are the ones that want to maintain control over aspect of public education. They are the ones that want to keep poor people in bad districts. They are the ones that want to make sure socialism and secularism are the official school religion. They are the ones who want to have more rights to a child's mind than their parents do. Public education was meant to be a parenting aide, not a government aide. We've lost sight of that.
Why not just give out grants (vouchers) and let parents decide the rest. It works for colleges, right? Nobody whines because Notre Dame is Catholic or that I.U. is secular or that one college offers online courses for credit while another college may not, or that an Ivy League school focuses on traditional academics while a community college focuses more on vocational training. They're not all the same. They don't even try to be the same. And our college and university system is far, far, better than our public K-12 system.
Same thing with our preschools. We give out vouchers to poor people for those. Doesn't matter if it's religious or not, doesn't matter if it's Montessori or play-based. Doesn't matter if they teach Spanish or sign language or if they are more child-led. We simply allow parents to choose the place they think is best.
Why is this such a crazy concept when it comes to K-12. Isn't this a good compromise between the government safety nets and programs for the poor that tend to be advocated by the left and the competetive, efficient, diverse, consumer-driven market solutions that tend to be advocated by the right?
I don't believe there is a simple single solution. If there are school that have small class sizes and have adequate resource to provide the varied classes need, but do not meet the needs of the student population for whatever reason should be accountable. I also see many districts that have large class sizes and the lack of funds available (often due to lack of older population of voters will to raise taxes to average rates) to provide the needed class options and smaller class sizes that require hiring more qualified teachers. I agree that vouchers would be the end of many rural school and there for the end of the community, because when schools go people leave. Those that did not move would be bussed over 15 miles to another small school with the same problems where class sizes would increase and just move the problem.
Beth
Dylan two items
1) I think your info about vouchers being a failure is bogus. Everywhere they were tried they were a overwelming success
2) the teachers unions illegally spent millions of their members dues to try and thwart competition.
Smaller classes are not the answer. The unions want smaller classes so they could build up a dues paying base so they could maintain the monopoly. The public school system is a failure and should be abolished.
...what a public school voucher is; do you?
If you don't like religious schools taking advantage of public school vouchers, fine. It may come as a shock to you to learn that many religious schools are not interested in obtaining public school vouchers for fear of too much state intrusion in the day-to-day operation of their religion. So it would be a simple matter to exclude religious schools from qualifying for public school vouchers.
What is your next objection? Oh, yes, something about vouchers taking away hope in local schools by leaving them with the most disadvantaged and unmotivated students while those with any privilege flee.
Again, such is not the case. At-risk students presently receive added state and federal funding to help create special programs to specifically address their needs. Under a voucher program, added funding means added opportunities to create special schools specifically designed for at-risk students. Under a voucher system, it is precisely these students who will now have an economic incentive within a voucher public education system.
And if want smaller classrooms is your plan to improve public education, great. Vouchers is the way to get that done far, far more efficiently than a bloated public school beauracy, as any parent with children actually in public schools will tell you.
Davidfarrar you are spot on with your evaluation of vouchers. Dylan 's complaint about religious school is a smoke screen to block children from learning. He needs to answer some questions- Why do a majority of public school graduates need to take remedial math and reading to get in a college program, average reading level of 9th grade? Another question- Why do most catholic and private schools high school students get scholarships and read at a 14th grade level? He has an agenda involving the teachers union and is just trying to protect his meal ticket. The lame excuse that parents of private school students are more involved with their children's education does not fly. If you are a professional and you fail at your job, you are incompetent and should quit. Public schools are a failure and should be abolished.
...who knows a little something about vouchers. I can tell by your post, Stumpylarue, you have delved into the subject as well. Keep up the good work.
Can I ask you for a second to my motion to include public school vouchers as a plank in Unity08's Educational platform?
I have had occasions where I have had to defend vouchers in various teacher colleges around the country. Never once did I run across any student-teacher, or their professors, who really understood just how beneficial vouchers can be to the profession of state school educators, or to their teachers unions. However, when I explained to them how a good educator could market their teaching success at another voucher school, and actually bring more students to that school, and, as a result, their net worth would increase, making it possible to ask for and receive a higher salary, many saw the light and began to take note.
The same goes for teacher unions. Vouchers represent an organizing bonanza to teacher unions. But it is strange how so few union organizers are prepared to take advantage of the opportunity. I am sure that will change, though.
And, lastly, there is the issue of raising teachers' salaries. I, of course, agree, good educators need to be able to earn higher salaries. And as long as we can raise the salaries of good educators, while lowering the salaries of bad educators, public education will benefit. To some extent, market forces will address this issue, but that will not be enough to actually raise the salaries of good, effective educators to the level of architects or lawyers. For that we will need significant increases in local ad valorem taxes. It is in this area where vouchers will have their greatest effect. Once you give the parents of school-age children the power to chose their children's school, that school now belongs to them and they will support higher taxes much strong than in the present system where they know they have no connection with and are, in fact, powerless. Vouchers will provide a much stronger taxing base than does our present state education system.
ex animo
davidfarrar
I have no problem with religious schools getting the vouchers. The problem is what is left behind. Those who couldn't afford to go to Catholic school even with assistance. Unless they can play some ball, of course.
Vouchers do not fully address the problem. The Cato Institute, who supports vouchers, published this analysis:
School size
This variable is clearly endogenous (i.e., affected by school sector). Parents tend to prefer schools in which teachers know all the students by name and which create a friendly, community atmosphere. This is much easier in smaller schools, and hence there is a competitive pressure not to get too large in the private education sector. No such pressure exists in the public sector, where contrary bureaucratic incentives encourage large school size. As a result, the average public school is roughly three times the size of the average private school: 521 students versus 182. It is thus unjustifiable to pretend that school size is independent of school sector.
If read with some exposure to the situation on both sides (I have taught in both public and private schools), one can see clearly that small school size equals small class size. And, if the reader can see past Cato's libertarian bias toward favoring private over public schools, one can see clearly that class size is an important determining factor of the success of any teacher.
To call all teachers incompetent in some unthinking, igorant frame of mind is unacceptable to a reasoned public (to understand the last statement, sir, you would have to have some grasp on true enlightenment (capital or lower case, if you will).
I harbor no extreme hatered toward religion. Its misguided activism is another matter.
--Think also of the comfort and rights of others
For the most part I agree with what you say, Thomas, but something must eb done. If partial privatization of public education improves the the overall intellectual capabilities of America's youth that works for me but it needs to be regulated. As for the students who are still unable to attend private schools they will quickly benefit from the funding that can now be applied to their education instead of others. Personally, I think we should simply end our war in Iraq and start pumping those dollars into our public educational facilities (schools instead of battleships and all that jazz).
As for the misguided activism of organized religion,Voltaire, you seem to be constantly confusing the ambition of various individuals with the teachings of a faith. Every criticism that you have laid at the feet of organized religion is more appropriately allotted to demagogues.
shadismount@hotmail.com
Did you see the evangelicals out trying to convert the Mormons on the news tonight. What a laugh.
--Think also of the comfort and rights of others
Allowing more education producers into the system will help reduce classroom size. It's a simple matter of supply and demand.
As I have pointed out, At-Risk students receive, and will receive, larger vouchers than normal performing students, just as they presently do in State schools, making them more attractive to private schools.
On thing most people don't understand about vouchers is that the State, as the regulator, will always be in control of the distribution of any education voucher. Indeed, that is the proper role of the State, that of the regulator and not the producer of public education. The structural problem we have in public education today is that the State both regulates and produces public education. If we can develop a public education system made up of a large and growing market of competitive education producers, all regulated by the State, public education will improve.
ex animo
davidfarrar
Is a smoke screen. My 8th grade class 45 students per class room, shared books, shared pencils, shared paper. Elementary school 1000 students. High school 40 student per classroom. High school 3000 students. Graduating class 640 students, graduated 350 in class. Earned a scholastic award for college, had turn it down, lack of money for tuition. started college at age 45 earned a 4.0. Small classes are a smoke screen. I stand by my statement if a professional fails at their job they should quit and stop complaining.
We have done so much for so long with so little we could do anything with nothing.- US Naval Yardbird Motto
It sounds like your school of large class sizes was not very successful. You also were not able to close that tuition gap. These are the problems that face the voucher system you are advicating. I am starting to think you have a smoke screen up yourself, but it is easy to see through.
--Think also of the comfort and rights of others
Stumpy, Dave, why the cut and run attitude toward failing schools. I mean it is not the building or location of the building that is the problem. We have to get away from the simple-minded idea that “all teachers are incompetent”. It just isn’t true. The problem lies in the general bureaucratic set up that favors these mega schools. School size is not a smoke screen, Stump, come on. It is simple. Young people thrive on as much individual attention as possible. That is why tutoring companies are successful. (O, and those tutors—guess what—they are usually working or retired teachers who are finding results in a situation that is set up for success.) That is what parents seek when they send their children to private schools; small class size, a good teacher-to-student ratio.
So, why should we have to send our children to schools far a field if we can remedy the problem closer to home? It takes some positive energy. It takes people really working to find solutions, not just cutting and running.
Public schools have their problems, no doubt. Those problems are complex. Many of them begin outside the school doors and enter with the students. I recently went to a public school graduation. It was deplorable. It was hard to find anyone who dressed appropriately for the occasion. It was hard to find anyone listening to the speeches, including the ones given by the class president and valedictorian. People were smoking cigarettes in defiance of the “Smokeless Campus” signs. People were on their cell phones during the speeches. It was a generally unruly crowd more suited to a European soccer match then a solemn and sacred ceremony marking a milestone in the lives of so many children. In the end, there was little respect paid toward the institution.
Now, my niece, who I was there to honor, is a fine example of the success of some of those teachers Stumpy would have us believe are incompetent. She is a nursing student who put together an anti-drug, anti-alcohol post-graduation party at the school’s gymnasium that was well attended. She was inspired to volunteer at the local hospital by several of her teachers who sacrificed their private time on the weekends to mentor these young people. This is the success story. Again, it depended on the individual attention that was afforded by a group of educators in a more intimate environment.
Now to the sad part of the story: My other niece was studying for her finals that week and I was looking over what she was doing in her U.S. history class. It was the memorization of names and dates. I could tell that the young history teacher was attempting to cover some of the critical ideas in U.S. history, but doing so on a very low level. I asked if they wrote any essays for the class. “No, not really,” was the answer. I can understand why though, this guy was overwhelmed by the numbers. He could not possibly teach upwards to ninety students how to construct a significant piece of writing, mentor all of them through individual meetings, and then evaluate each piece of writing in a significant manner and get it all back to the student in a timely fashion. That does not even include the idea of rough draft stages, and rewrites. That situation is untenable. If Stumpy considers this a failure on the individual educators part it is due to an ignorance of the real situation that these, often young and inexperience (certainly overwhelmed), educators face.
I would rather find a solution to the problem then throw the baby out with the bathwater. I do believe that vouchers favor the upper-middle class who have more options, opportunities and understanding of the benefits of a good education. No matter how much aid you give to a family who is struggling to make ends meet (and more and more of them are in a world that is producing a great number of millionaires (according to High Net Worth TV) and paupers) they will not be able to afford to close the tuition gap that they face with private schools or the obstacle they face trying to get their children into the good schools in the white-bred neighborhoods in the suburbs. In the public school set up they would still face the problem of class size.
Students from a family dynamic that does not include parents with college educations, or even high school diplomas, often do not have the support system in place to help them persevere when they are struggling. It is certainly difficult for them to turn to their teachers who are overwhelmed with the sheer number of students under the tutelage. The system causes the illusion of “incompetence” which really isn’t incompetence at all.
When we stop designing our schools to field the next Michael Vick we will be on the right tract. Whatever is done in public education, the first step must be smaller class size. It is a simple and obvious first step.
--Think also of the comfort and rights of others
Our public schools are failing simply because they have not been allowed to fail. Once you actual allow a public school to actual fail, I can assure you, thing will change.
I know this course of action may seem strange to you, but it can be done. Once a public school fails to measure up, everyone who receives a salary at that school simply gets fired (during the summer months, of course) I mean, everyone, from the janitor right on up to the principal. Their positions are then advertised as being open and all qualified applications will be accepted. Of course, parents, now having the ability to send their children to other voucher school, accompanied with their state vouchers, will also be much better position to deal with a neighborhood public school failing, as well.
Don't get me wrong, here Dylan. In such a case, I don't think there will be too many public schools actually having to go through this procedure. After all, I do have faith in the ability of public school educators' ability to make the hard decisions and to do what needs to be done to turn a failing school into an successful school. All it take is a little structural motivation.
ex animo
davidfarrar
Dave, that sounds good, but a bit draconian. Couldn't we begin by creating an environment set up for success and see if that works first. Then without improvement I would concede you your point.
--Think also of the comfort and rights of others
--Think also of the comfort and rights of others
You are still making assumptions, Dylan. The school I went to was large because I lved in the ghetto. There were more poor people per square foot than you are probably used to or would tolerate. We were taught the only way out of that hellhole was to pick yourself up, get educated and climb out on your own. the problem with most modern school is the pat on the back, nobody is ever wrong, bleeding heart pycho-babble quoted by most of the established "educators". Take a long hard look at the system and you would see the problems all around you. Group think, students researching information without a back ground in facts, soft sciences, no coherent foundation in basic Reading and Math these are all the things that need to be addressed well before class size in even worth bothering with. My questions still stand. Why do public high school graduates need remedial math and reading to get into college? I have another one for you, How many high school teachers can pass the New york Regency exam in their chosen subject?
Stumpy, you are putting the cart before the horse. The reason students require remedial math is because teachers are too busy practicing classroom management rather than delivering substantial lesson plans. They have too many students from difficult backgrounds warehoused in classrooms.
--Think also of the comfort and rights of others
And one of the thing we have learned, if you want to help failing schools, don't reward them. Don't reward failure. You don't give failing schools more money. You don't give failing school higher paid educators. You don't give failing school extra resources. All you get when you reward failure is more failing schools. When you think about it, why would failing school want to change when they are receiving extra benefits when they fail?
As I said, Mr. Voltair; it may sound draconian to you, but it's no different than what private school educators owned by private investors would face should that fail to attract enough students to pay their bills.
ex animo
davidfarrar
if "necessity" is the mother of invention.....
then
"failure" must be its father.....
You are carrying the water for all the primary and secondary school educators I know. But understand that before "vouchers" are an issue for Unity 08, there won't be a Unity 08. It just is not a federal issue. But pumping up these wedge issue to undermine the movement plays well with some of these folks...they exercise the same behavior around this site.
Bill"for what we are together"
bill713.unity08@sbcglobal.net
Check out KIPP school program for an idea of positive changes in the school system. Also check out. The mayor of Newark, New Jersey is requesting a school voucher program in his city because of the failed public school system. Evidently Dylan is not carrying enough water.
I have no time to comment on it, but here is a little information to consider:
Since 2024-2001, the Montgomery County Public School District in Maryland has reduced class size in grades K-3 to no more than 15 students. When children who had been in smaller classes since kindergarten reached 2nd grade, they scored at some of the highest levels seen in the nation, according to the district’s accountability office. The district’s high-needs students saw the greatest improvements, with “consistent and, in some cases, extraordinary gains by African American students, Hispanic students, poor students, special education students, and those learning English as a second language.”
Source: Montgomery County Public Schools, “ Kindergarten Reform Effort's First Class Reaches Grade 2 as Students Achieve Notable Gains, Narrow Academic Gaps,” May 30, 2024; http://www.mcps.k12.md.us/info/CTBS2003/reformgains.shtm
O, thanks for the support Bill.
--Think also of the comfort and rights of others
Harvard researchers examined attitudes of four different groups of adolescents: non-Latino whites; second generation U.S.-born Latinos; newly arrived Mexican immigrants; and youth in Guanatajuato, a Mexican town with high levels of emigration to the United States. In comparing these groups, the researchers assessed Latino values, attitudes toward school, and achievement motivation.
"Our sample of Mexican immigrants -- by far the largest group of new immigrants to the U.S. -- reveals cultural attitudes and values that seem highly conducive to a productive life in the United States," wrote study authors Education Professor Marcelo Suárez-Orozco and Research Associate Carola Suárez-Orozco, both at GSE. "The U.S.-born youth reveal more dystopic attitudes toward school and school authorities."
The research team also noted that white students typically complain of boredom in school, while immigrant students seldom do. "White American students tend to display ambivalent attitudes toward school and, particularly, school authorities.... On the other hand, immigrant students tend to articulate much more positive associations toward school and school authorities. These students were not bored and alienated, but appreciative and gratified. Likewise, their attitudes toward school authorities were positive."
Source:
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/1996/02.29/ImmigrantStuden.html
Funny how immigrant students do well in our schools; in spite of all of those incompetent teachers like Barbara Morgan that people on these threads keep pointing out.
--Think also of the comfort and rights of others
White students are bored and a victim of reverse discrimination as are super intelligent students and disabled students. They are bored because most of the classes are watered down so everyone can pass. There has been study after study about grade inflation and passing students to build their self esteem. Competition is the answer.
#1: Our schools are worse than bad. We lag behind a huge number of industrialized nations. In my opinion the dumbing down of America will get us long before the terrorists.
#2: If it costs the state $6000 per student (I'm guessing) per year to provide public education, why can't we offer vouchers of $4000 to those who want to prioritize their lives so that their children can attend the school of their choice.
#3: The left over $2000 per "lost" student can be reallocated for what many claim will ONLY BE POOR children LEFT BEHIND. Educators are always begging for more money to do a better job! In this proposal there will be more money per student in public education. Let's see if money really is the problem.
#4: I enthusiastically believe in the separation of church and state. Most people feel that only religious based pulic schools will respond to the new flow of students. I disagree. I personally would choose a school that taught comparitive religion (without advocating one) and place an emphasis on math and science. I would doubt that some schools will become know for their drama, musical or literature departments. Competition will allow the cream to rise to the top and god only knows...we need a little cream in our education system.....
Comments?
I agree with your post 100%