wow lets get q really bad ideal ..we could use the government and almost ay other completly incompetent group and decide to unionize them so that we can cover up the completly incompently and other issues with a union...wow a really neat concept....if nothing else works unionize or at least get like the colleges so no matter how bias or incompentent i am i will still get paid and could probably get the aclu to cover my incompentence...wow great concept..i get to pay for better pay and benefits than i get and u cant fire me...ooooo sign me up barf
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Union activity is a great part of America's history and a right, I vigorously wish to preserve. If you want to look at why education is failing our students look at the whole system.
The people who oppose labor unions blame the unions. Why? A big slow moving easy target.
The truth is that education is bogged down with too many special interest groups trying to get a piece of the pie.
How do we end up with so many special ed children?
If a student is disrupting the classroom he is sent to the office. If a student disrupts the class too many times he is suspended. If a student is suspended too many times the parent gets angry at the school. If the parent gets too angry they complain to the school board. If the school board gets too many complaints the child gets sent for a psychological profile. The student then gets labeled "Emotional Support". This means the student gets placed back into the class with your son or daughter. When the child now disrupts the class this is called a "manifestation of his disability" and the teacher has to give him a time out from class to walk the halls and regain his composure. In the mean time he is actually disrupting other classrooms. Other teachers complain to the office and the hall monitor brings the disruptive child back too his class. At the end of the day the teacher is called to the office and given a verbal reprimand and a letter in the personel file for not controlling their classroom. The teacher takes one of two actions: First, he may fight the reprimand through his union, which brings more attention and scrutiny from the administration and possible termination. or Second he becomes numb to a ridiculus process that panders to bad behaviors and unruly students and frankly just does enough to get by.
Before you judge a teacher or their unions find out what is really like to be a teacher.
Most teachers have a Masters degree plus and work for starting wages comparable to any mid management job. A young man, graduated from our local school district. He went to trade school for mechanics. His first job at 20 years old earned him $15,000 above the $28,000 starting salary for teachers. It is sad that we say we value education in this country but we are so unwilling to treat teachers as professionals.
To add insult to injury the school district in my area, that is getting tough on teachers unions, just put in a $1,000,000 (yes one million dollars) worth the Astroturf for its sports complex. Estimated lifespan 10 years. What could we spend $100,000 a year on in a small rural school district? Books? Computers? AV equipment?
No we chose Astroturf.
And you wonder why education is failing to reach the goals we set?
In many respects I believe you have some valid arguments, RedWhiteandBlue, but you're missing a lot of the point. There is no doubt that the government education system is screwed up. Why do we graduate only two thirds of the students who enter our schools? Many reasons. The inability of the schools to maintain discipline is certainly one. The unwillingness of many parents to take part in the education of their children certainly another. There are others.
But, what should be painfully obvious is that the teachers unions protect the weak teachers. That is the whole point of their existence. If we had a reasonable starting wage and then let the teachers "earn" a raise as is done in most professions we would have a more educated society.
If we had some sort of voucher system so that parents could decide which school they want their child to attend (maybe because of better teachers) competition would likely force better pay for those teachers.
First, please go to a school and learn how to write a word, sentence, and/or paragraph. Though I disagree with your position, you have my sympathies, since your writing demonstrates that you probably were taught by complete incompetents.
Then, figure out how we are going to attract more teachers into the profession once you eliminate the organization responsible for maintaining their wages and protecting them from the frivolous whims of administrators and school board members. I look forward to your explanation.
Reino. There was a time unions were needed. Over the years I have been in several different unions. ALL BAD. They protect the incompetent workers, pile layers of administration on the companies and use their influence in elections to protect their status quo. I ALWAYS got screwed by the unions. The construction union, had me fired. I was a witness to a union official taking a bride. The telephone workers union protected the family members of long time employees and threw all of the new hires to the wolves, that were not family or friends, regardless of senority. Look at the auto manufacturing companies (GM, Ford, Chrysler). Then look at the nonunion car makers (Subaru, Toyota, Honda). They all have plants in the US they all provide jobs for American citizens and the foreign companies pay more and make a better product. The teachers union causes a bad situation to worsen by being able to strike and make unrealistic demands of the taxpayer. It is a myth that the administration, and school board would have "frivolous whims" Why do non public schools perform so well? Because the union is unable to protect the incompetent teachers. Good teachers go where they are appreciated and do not need to cover for all the drones. The best way to fix the schools is to eliminate teachers strikes and make it easier to fire incompetent teachers. Alas that would not fit into your agenda of throwing more money at a failed system and a corrupt union system.
Stumpylarue. While there are a lot of corrupt union leaders out there, I am a member of the NEA, and I have seen it do good work. I teach in a school where the union and administration have a good relationship, which I realize is unusual.
While you might enjoy seeing teacher strikes ending so that we could return to the good old days when teachers made $5000 without benefits, such a development actually would be harmful to our educational system.
You say that private schools perform well. Do you have some data to back this up?
What makes you think that your best interests are the best interests of your employer? Americans prefer the chaotic and the slightly messy politics of a Democracy (otherwise, why are people climbing all over each other to get in?) over a compassionate dictator. Why would you believe that a compassionate dictator is the best system for your livelihood? All power to the people!
Delegate Phil
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
Phil What are you talking about?
Sorry stumpy, the naive rant behind this thread got me off on my own rant. To suggest that a union is simply for the benefit of incompetence is ludicrous.
Discussing issues intelligently is paramount here. Of course there are problems with our education system. However, they go well beyond the misperception that unions are the root problem. The perceived need to unionize among a group of people merely reflects the need to address more basic issues. Until we resolve more basic socioeconomic problems in our society, the symptoms will keep popping up here and there. A lot of different forces are in play when a child enters a classroom. It is too easy to explain and blame people for exercising their constitutional rights as the root cause for problems in education. The need to unionize is a reaction to something else. While there are likely to be some teachers that one could claim to be incompetent, fixing our problems in the educational system do not simply begin and end there.
Delegate Phil
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
You are so right Phil. However when the union can dictate, what they teach and how they teach it proves they have overstepped the bounds of freedom. We, taxpayers and parents of the students, are the consumers and they, the teachers and the union, are the employees but we are cut out of any control of our schools by the psuedo-government school boards and union control. School boards dictate the taxes we pay. Teacher study groups dictate the subjects and parents are forced to pay for a failing system. We taxpayers own the schools and we need to restore control to the owners.Until we can change some of the failures into successes, the union is just a stumbling block in the hallway.
School Boards are elected by a popular vote. In most states, they need to pass a bond referendum to raise taxes significantly. The taxpayers do in fact own the school as you say, which is why school governance is set up as it is.
It takes a village to raise a child. Teachers are getting damaged goods right from the start and the village is out to lunch. Teachers have to deal with discipline problems more and more. That leaves less and less time for teaching. What do the parents do when confronted with the fact that their child may be a discipline problem? The parents blame the teacher. That sends a real good message to children - defy authority and get away with it.
Teachers don't determine the curriculum, they merely implement a teaching plan. If children aren't learning, its time to identify and isolate the child's problems, see what the parents are doing, look for the support systems in the village, scrutinize how school administrators are making education a priority, and begin to support the teachers instead of blaming them. And after checking out all of that stuff, find out how difficult it would be for a teacher to earn a decent living without the union.
If I were a teacher, I would join a union too.
Phil
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
How can anyone expect a teacher to do well if they are trying to teach 30 students who come from poverty stricken and violent neighborhoods? These kids come to school with little or no idea how to behave in the first place. Many have parents who have no skills and is lucking to read on an 6th grade reading level, so they get no help at home. But the teacher is expected to teach 30 students at a time, not to mention they teach 5 or 6 of these classes a day. The school boards dictates what and how something is to be taught, not the teacher. And teachers cannot discipline the students without fear of being sued.
While there are union officials that are corrupt, most unions do protect the workers. Without them, all workers are at the mercy of their employer. I don't know about any of you, but I don't believe all employers are fair minded, in fact, I know there not. Most have one thing in mind, the bottom line. And they do not mind if they have to kick their employees in the teeth to make sure they make the very highest profit possible. Everyone has a right to make a profit, they do not have the right to step on anyone else to make that profit.
Betty McLeod
PA 06
Betty327@ptd.net
Reino and Betty in PA. schoolboards are elected but like all things political the parents have almost zero say after they get in. The school boards are allowed to raise taxes with a show of an open hearing. As I said just a show. The citizens need a politician, to push a bill, to even fight the tax raise. We are just a cash cow for the state. Incumbents dominate the boards and the unions back the members that are sympathetic to their unions. The unions are also allowed to strike. This practice closes many schools, every two or three years, for a month or more. Schoolboards cave to the unions because the children may miss months of school or even need to repeat classes because of teachers strikes. It is a disgrace. I have stated before, based on my experience, the union is a major reason for the failing schools in America.
They should not be allowed to strike if they do they should be disbanded.
The parents need more input in classes.
Cut out the fluff classes and get back to basics.
As for crowded schools and the usual excuses by modern teachers it is all propaganda. If you go back 20 years we had the same problems, the same poor students, the same single parent issue, and we also had a worse problem of inner city poverty. I grew up in a ghetto. There were 50 kids in my class. We had to share books,paper, pencils, ( I took home a Math book, to study, every other day), and had a split shift in school (My class was in the morning, a separate class was in the afternoon, same teacher) we all lived under the same conditions and 90% of my class mates were considered successful. The school I went to turned thousands of professionals, doctors, lawyers and engineers. Don,t let the hype cloud you thinking check out history and see why schools 40 years ago were a success and today have become a blight on society.
Unless the teachers in the school you are talking about are grossly overpaid, why isn't it a community priority to get teachers decent pay? I submit that it is not the teachers and the unions that are to blame for the need to strike, the blame needs to fall elsewhere. Why would your community permit its children to be out of school for months?
Phil
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
Of course it's not the teacher's nor their unions fault, they HAD to strike. We should just hand over whatever they ask for, right? Teacher's pay sometimes looks fairly poor, until you realize they work 180-190 days/year, instead of 250-260 like the rest of us. Multiply their salary by 1.39 to get an accurate comparison, not to mention that many folks would gladly give up some salary to get the extra time off.
I agree that a good balance is sometimes hard to find in reaching a contract settlement. However, I was addressing another post that wanted to blame the teachers and the unions for the need to strike.
All the good teachers I ever had gave us homework. And all the good teachers I have ever known always had hours and hours of papers to grade at home, long after they left their workplace. So instead of adding up the number of days worked for comparison, it would be more accurate to add up the number of hours spent working.
Phil
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
The same is true of many that work the 250-260 days per year.
yes but when other people work extra hours they usually get paid for it. sometimes time and a half or more. the teachers i know work many hours on the weekends as well as after school not to mention the emotional toll it can take on a person.
Phil --The average teachers salary in my area of PA. Is 48000 a year. Most make more based on how many degrees they have (which the taxpayer also partially funds continuing education).The average worker in this area makes around 25000. Teachers make almost double the average salary. As for why we allow our school to be on strike, it all goes back to the unions and lobbyists in our state capital. The unions in PA. is so powerful they dictate to the legislature what rights they will allow citizens to have. Yes you read that right the unions dictate the rules to the government. WE citizens cannot get our politicians to do anything to help that is why a few years ago there was a voter revolt and we voted 40% of the career politicians out of office. It did absolutely nothing to help, the new crop of officials just continued the status quo. Until competition is allowed or the unions here are stripped of any power the public is going to get screwed. The public school system is an utter failure and has been for decades. The unions are the number one cause.
Difficult to comment. You obviously know the situation there far better than me. The average teacher salary here is $46,700 by comparison. And the average per capita income is at $30,000 (slightly below the national average). It does seem your teacher vs. average citizen pay is more extreme than here. That right there is enough to stir some resentments about pay and student performance.
I do know that here there are problems keeping teachers as they often move on to more lucrative positions in the private sector. Generally, a person with a masters degree has better pay opportunities elsewhere.
I currently have no young children in the k-12 education system. I suspect that your situation in PA is more the exception rather than the rule. Having said that, it has been my recent experience that unions were no longer able to exert such a powerful hold as unions are on the decline. The flip side of course is that the egregious behavior of the early industrialists created the need for unions. Are new contracts subject to binding arbitration there? It is hard to take such issues lightly when you feel powerless.
Phil
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
Most contracts can only have a arbitration after the school has been closed several times because of strikes. The union can reject arbitration and demand new talks. The majority of strikes in PA are over perks and healthcare benefits. The teachers have the best healthcare plan in the state, even better than federal employees. When several of the school districts wanted the teachers to pickup some of the premium costs and a small co-pay ($10 for a doctors visit) the unions would strike. They strike for more free time during day for "planning" and reduced class size. Which is currently between 18 to 25 students. They also have a classroom aide to help with the students studies and control issues. A majority of the time the aide is running study and teaching periods while the teachers are out of the classroom. The teachers teach outside of their area of expertise. We have teachers with Math degrees teaching english and gym teachers getting paid $40000 a year, to run 4 class periods a day, whose job is to play basketball with the kids. The class rooms are a joke. Students that have graduated in the top 50 of their class, can't read or make change of a five dollar bill. A vast majority of students that try to go to college require remedial reading and math classes to enter school. The average reading level when they graduate is 9th grade.
There were also several incidents of teachers sexually abusing the children, were fired and the union forced these perverts to be rehired with back pay. Teachers were caught bring students to their homes to do yard work during school hours. One teacher took several female students to his house claiming it was extra class work and tutoring only to have a beer party. He was fired and rehired with back pay. All thanks to the wonderful union experience. The union has no place in a school and no amount of nonsense about the American way can justify the abuse committed in the name of union brotherhood.
First of all, you stated that most teachers make more than the average. Thanks for clarifying this. It adds a great deal of credibility to everything you say.
I'm sorry--I meant to say subtracts instead of adds.
Second of all, teachers do not like to strike. They don't get paid. If they do get some funds from their union, those funds end up getting replenished through higher union dues. Strikes occur when negotiations break down. They are horrible, but taking away the right to strike leaves teachers with no power, which in turn leads to poor working conditions.
Third of all, teachers do not teach outside of their area of expertise because of unions. Teachers generally try to teach within their area of expertise, and unions try to help with this.
Fourth of all, you state that students graduating in the top half of their class can't make change from a five dollar bill. Is this fact as true as the fact that most teachers make more than average pay?
Fifth of all, when teachers sexually abuse students, the union cannot make the school take the teacher back. The state takes away the teaching certificate so that the school is not allowed to hire the teacher.
Sixth of all, what are the facts with the beer party? The beer party I was able to read about through google involved a 3rd grade teacher with high school students. It was a stupid action, but it was not work-related and therefore should not result in the teacher getting fired. Put in jail, perhaps, but not fired. Perhaps there is a different incident you are talking about that involved a teacher taking his own students to a beer party?
Reino we have elementary teachers that make $65000 a year, high school teachers making close to $80000 a year we have entry level teachers starting at $30000. Your trying the usual trick of nitpicking on semantics to discourage any attempt to bring the bad side of unions to the discussion. Unions strike so teachers and the union can milk the system. I have met more lazy incompetent teachers in my life time than I care to remember. The state does not take away the teaching certificates of molesters in PA. unless they are convicted of a felony and sentenced to prison. The school has to have several incidents documented on the same teacher just to bring charges. You should get your facts straight before you quote Google searches. We have had numerous teachers caught molesting children and downloading child porn onto school computers. You don't want to except the facts. Your are more concerned with protecting your turf. In New York State the teachers could not pass the exit exam for graduation in the subjects they taught.
The unions diminish everything they get their grubby hands on and always have. It is a racket the mafia would be proud of. Wake up and smell the garbage it is killing us all. You quote a incident where a third grade teacher was with high school students and beer, and you don't think that is a reason to fire a teacher? Are YOU completely INSANE.
First you tell me to get my facts straight, and then you tell me that there needs to be several cases of sexual abuse to bring charges. Perhaps the law is different in Pennsylvania than Illinois, but here in Illinois you can be convicted based on one case of sexual abuse. How many times do you have to commit sexual abuse in Pennsylvania before they can charge you?
Evidently Reino and Betty you did not check out the no spank website I mentioned in an earlier post here is an updated site to see about teacher abuse. www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/19991031newabuse1.asp . The law is not "different" in PA. checkout the site and you will see the main problem is teachers cannot be removed until AFTER they are convicted. If they are removed from the classroom or fired they can sue for back pay. The union protects them. Meanwhile they change schools or states and continue with their behavior for several more years often decades. Their is also many incidents where teachers were asked to resign or charges would be brought against them. In some cases teachers were paid off and given a letter recommending them for a new job at a different school. As for being in a school and seeing what goes on in a school, I also have first hand experience. I was a sheetmetal apprentice instructor for six years and worked in a public school for 4 years. I know where all the bodies are buried and who was holding the shovel. As for the school board argument, the schoolboards in PA. hands are tied because the schools need to be open for business. They are willing to sell the taxpayers souls to the union to keep them open.
The article you cited points out a very serious problem that should be remedied. It doesn't mention unions at all, but states and school districts should do a better job reporting problems and ensuring that problem teachers don't stay in the profession.
If a teacher is accused of sexual abuse he/she will be put on paid leave. He/she will not remain in the classroom and if convicted would never return. However, if they are found innocent, then they would return to the classroom. We still live in a country where we are innocent until proven guilty.
You should also not forget that there are students who would not think twice about accusing a teacher of abuse because they do not like the teacher for whatever reason. I have never heard of a teacher remaining in the classroom while under suspicion.
And you would be wrong, I did go to no spank zone. It did not mention unions and it was not exclusive to schools. There are a lot of sick people in this world and they work in many different fields. By laying this at the feet of the teachers unions does not do the subject justice.
Betty McLeod
PA 06
Betty327@ptd.net
Thank you rino, you put it quite nicely.
Sorry Strump, Pa happens to be rated 10th in teachers pay and the average(I said average) is about $50,000 a year. However, the teachers that make the most are usually in the suburbs, not the inner city where they get the least experience teachers and their average pay is closer to $28,000 a year. This is why I do not like averages, too many people think that the average is what a teacher makes and rarely look at the teachers making well below that. Yes, there are bad teachers, just like any other field you get some people that suck at their job but you cannot rate the entire profession on a few bad apples.
Furthermore, I don't know what part of Pa you live in but there has not been teachers aids in the schools since the late 60's. The special ed classes do not even have them. Unions do not have as much power as you would like to think, they do not control our government, big business does that. And the school boards have the ear of our officials, not the unions or their members. The reason why we voted out so many incumbent a few years ago was because of the pay raise they gave themselves and people were pissed.
However Rino, in her defense, we do have a lot of student who cannot make change since they are allowed to bring calculators into the class, even for test. A practice I would like to see stop. I would never let my son have one.
The school boards are part of the problem, many have no idea how to teach and have ignored the business community for years. They just flat out refused to listen to what they were saying. That is beginning to change.
And stump, I know what I am talking about. I have been to those school myself and I have been a parent who had to deal with those schools. It is the school boards who have the control, not the schools. If people would just see teachers as professionals, there would not be all this blame laid at their feet.
The simple fact is one person CANNOT teach 30 or more students and have the children to get the attention they need. PERIOD.
Unions are what made the middle class, gave us safe working conditions, decent pay and benefits. Since unions have been weakened, we are starting to go back to the way it was before. Long working hours with little pay and no benefits, and in some places unsafe conditions and all the while the executives are raking in the profits. Look close at why unions were formed and you will know that I'm telling the truth.
Betty McLeod
PA 06
Betty327@ptd.net
The welfare state along with the politically correct, liberal agenda of cradle to grave care for people by the government is the root cause of the problems in education. This erosion has led to the decline in family values and is what produces unruly, disrespectful, unteachable students and adds insult to injury by barring recourse against them with the force of law.
You are misplacing your anger at the employers, it should be placed where it belongs, the Federal Gov't and it's UNCONSTITUTIONAL meddling in education is where it is more suited.
Reino Check out your favorite site. Google >teachers molesting students/ PA. See what you find. If that is too much info, Checkout these two addresses. WWW.nospank.net/zemel.htm or www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/19991102dschart3.asp. Maybe that will open your eyes.
As I said above, I read the article, and I agree with it. There are good recommendations in the article that should be followed through on.
Another eye opener Betty and Reino copied from the Times Leader in Wikes Barre PA.
Pa. No. 1 by far in teacher strikes
Five local districts don’t have contracts in state that is tops in U.S. for strikes since 2024.
By Mark Guydish mguydish@timesleader.com
Education Reporter
With a new school year about to begin and five local districts still without teacher contracts, a new report may sound a bit ominous: From 2024 to 2024, 60 percent of all teacher strikes nationwide happened in Pennsylvania.
The report was released by the Allegheny Institute on Public Policy and is being touted by “Stop Teacher Strikes Now,” an organization that endorses changes in Pennsylvania law that would bar teacher strikes.
According to the report, teacher strikes are legal in 13 states, and from 2024 to 2024, 137 strikes occurred nationwide, with 82 of them in Pennsylvania. Locally, Northwest Area and Lake-Lehman teachers staged strikes last school year. This summer, Lehman teachers started holding informational pickets before each monthly school board meeting, and began sitting in on the meetings.
Lehman union lead negotiator John Holland has not ruled out another strike this fall, and said the union probably won’t make that decision until after a negotiation session slated for Aug. 28.
At Northwest, school board members have said a strike can’t happen this year until the completion of a non-binding arbitration process that both sides have submitted to.
Three other districts – Greater Nanticoke Area, Wyoming Valley West and Hanover Area -- have remained largely off the public radar during their negotiations.
The 12-page report from the Allegheny Institute outlines how other states ban or allow teacher strikes, and how often strikes have occurred in other states. Ohio is a distant second in the number of strikes since 2024, with 23, and Illinois is third with 19. All other states have had three or fewer.
The report also lists a small group of states that generally prohibit strikes but where some strikes have occurred. The report notes that the states that have been truly strike-free tend to have “prohibitory strike laws with prescribed and serious penalties that have been upheld in court.” Such penalties include fines levied at striking unions, loss of teacher pay and loss of the union to serve as collective bargaining unit for teachers for a year or more.
Stop Teacher Strikes has thrown its support behind the “Strike Free Education Act” introduced in the state House by Republican Todd Rock of Waynesboro. That bill would make teachers forfeit two days pay for every day of a strike, levy a $5,000 individual fine per incident for inciting a strike, and strip a union of its right to deduct membership dues from paychecks for one year.
Teacher strikes are legal in 13 states, and from 2024 to 2024, 137 strikes occurred nationwide, with 82 of them in Pennsylvania.
interesting topic. i have never been in a union but have friends who are union men.. but after reading all the posts in here i don't understand stumpy and i mean no disrespect...but you keep mentioning over and over sexual abuse of students by teachers. what i don't understand is why you keep relating and blaming that on the unions. this is a societal problem. i have a 7th grader in the public school system and i have to tell you a few of my opinions. number one is i don't think you can put a price on a good teacher. if you look at the issue idealistically a good teacher should make way more than say the ceo of coca cola shouldn't they? what could be more valuable than those who are shaping the future of our country? that teacher is invaluable in my opinion. sure there are bad teachers. again part of scoiety just as there are bad people. i don't get the beef with a teacher in penn. or anywhere else making 50k a year. we are lucky enough to have had great success with our child in this system. when you talk about kids who aren't learning again that would be a societal problem. i don't see the tie in with unions. apparently teachers feel that without a union they would be at the mercy of the powers that be. i would take the union in a heartbeat i think. we know unions have their problems but what do you see as the difference if teachers had no union? that's what i would like to know.
There are 12 states that have 55 strikes over 8 years--too many, but not an out-of-control problem. (One of those states is Illinois, which has well over 1000 schools.) There is one state that has more strikes than all the others put together, where it therefore is an out-of-control problem. It looks to me like it is possible to allow strikes and still have a functioning educational system, but Pennsylvania hasn't figured out how to accomplish that. Perhaps they should figure out why they have problems that other states do not have.
S&S and Reino. I can't relate to other states and how they handle schools and funding. However I feel I need to show the relationship between the union and the problems:
One of the problems may be non-binding arbitration.
The abuse situation can be summarized by the earlier web site posting mentioned above. In Pa. the work rules and protection afforded by the union allows abusive teachers to be in system for years. To say it is not a union problem is to ignore the fact that they are turning a blind eye to many incidents they, as the union, should be policing internally. Instead they are using their power to make removing a teacher a major financial and legal hurdle. Let's not forget the school does not pay for anything the taxpayer is on the hook for all the expenses to remove an abuser. The school boards and administration is also culpable as they will "look bad" for allowing these things to go on unabated, so they sweep these incidents under the rug. The work rules also are part of the problem with efficient dissemination of information. Fluff classes are a major problem. History and social studies are falling by the wayside due to group learning and other programs that are taken as gospel rather than used as one of many teaching aides. I will relate a personal incident. My son who is a graduate student asked me if Hitler was invoved in starting World War One. Sounds silly on the surface but I found that the history class he took in high school did not cover WW I and WW II because the school and teachers felt it was too complicated and too violent to WASTE half a semester teaching. Consequently the classes were "watered down" so as to make it esier to teach to the lowest common denominator. It also allowed the teachers to teach less and spend more time on what they were interested in teaching. Yes, that is right what they wanted to teach rather than to any state lesson plans. As a parent, I was told many times that curriculum was the teachers and school decision and I should stay out of trying to make policy. The arrogance is appalling. They treat parents like we are all stupid rednecks. they seem to forget we went to college, we have jobs and we also take care of business.
Secondly I have no problem paying money to a "GOOD" teacher. I have a problem paying money to a "BAD" teacher. It is next to impossible to remove a incompetent teacher due to the union rules. Most of the strikes in PA are not about money but about work rules and perks.
Here is one for Betty elementary schools in this area still have aides for K thru 6 grades. Class sizes are usually under 25 students. Average in my school district is 23 in elementary and 27 in high school.
stumpy i will say you are definitely right as far as removing a bad teacher in my area is next to impossible in many schools. here in my state (fl.) if a school is in an affluent area it makes it easier. the ol money talks adage. this if course is good if you live in that district but it should be easier anywhere in the country to remove bad teachers. now i cant say whether this is strictly due to unions but obviously the unions are going to back teachers and sometimes i imagine for the wrong reasons. we also have a "pay for performance" policy in this state which seems like a good thing as long as there is no manipulation going on by an individual teacher. again i think a lot of this is just that there are so many teachers that it becomes a numbers thing and you will always have bad apples.
S&S, In Pa. There is no pay for performance, most raises are based on how much schooling the teacher has acquired, raises are based on number of degrees, hence the problem with incompetent teachers becoming the power base in most districts.
I think the biggest thing that would help, all over the country, is not smaller classes but smaller schools. By consolidating schools, the claims of it being easier to accomodate more classes and more kids, is more than likely false and a mistake. Lumping thousands of kids into one building or campus pushes the marginal kids out of a learning envoirnment and into survival mode. The impact incompetent teachers is magnified by their influence over these kids and the inability to remove them only compounds the problems. Smaller schools would also show the lack of training by our "teaching professionals" and be more conducive to a true learning experience. By putting more "rubber to the road" so to speak we would find the marginal students and be more apt to help them when they are not a nameless face in the crowd.
This also flies in the face of the union goals... more teachers in one place means more leverage. It also means less protection for the marginal teachers. Bad apples are everywhere but if the good apples can overcome their mistakes, we all benefit.
i like the idea of more smaller schools for not only the obvious reasons but it will also put people to work in the planning and construction. of course that part is a double edged sword due to the bureaucratic waste that always seems to happen with these types of projects.
When Ross Perot was running for president, he espoused the opinion that the only reason for the GIANT schools was to field a football team; it takes about 100 atheletes to do that.
i voted for perot!
Latest news on vouchers. The teachers union of Utah announced an all out war on new voucher law on ballot in Utah. Prez of union in Utah traveling country looking for money to fight plan. I think the union's days are numbered.
Stumpylarue said...."The impact incompetent teachers is magnified by their influence over these kids and the inability to remove them only compounds the problems. Smaller schools would also show the lack of training by our "teaching professionals" and be more conducive to a true learning experience. By putting more "rubber to the road" so to speak we would find the marginal students and be more apt to help them when they are not a nameless face in the crowd."
I completely agree. Believe it or not, there was a time when kids were taught according to their learning ability. Then, we entered the "politically correct" phase. Next, my sister-in-law, who was a teacher's aid in the mid-nineties, says she is teaching a class for Special Needs, children. "Oh, what is that? Is that kids with some kind of medical or physical impairment?" No, my sister-in-law tells me it is a class for kids that can't sit still in class. They can't follow direction and have difficulty paying attention.
I don't know if that was a good thing or not, yet I couldn't help feeling the kids were being labeled and isolated as "different". Which is the last thing a kid needs in school among his/her peers.
While your sister in law is right about some of the special ed students who have trouble sitting still and following directions it is not the only form of special ed. There are students who have trouble for a variety of reasons such as dyslexia, mental illness, etc.
I have said before that many of the schools use special ed classes for students with behavior problems and that is not what it was meant for.
Betty
Betty327@ptd.net
This is ridiculous.
As a 51 year old returning to college, I have experienced first hand the problems with public schools.
More money thrown at education will not correct the problem.
Larger or smaller schools will not correct the problem.
TEACHERS ARE THE PROBLEM.
Their altruism. They only teach what is "good" for the student. Who can honestly say they are smart enough to determine what is "good" for a student? Why not teach all sides of an issue and let the student decide?
Their propagandization. Teachers are creating students who are conservative liberals, moderate liberals, and liberal liberals.
Teachers teach students to NOT think for themselves.
We should be firing more teachers with agendas.
Lets allow a federal tax deduction for vouchers of private schools.
Public schools need competition.
i think the teachers unions have done a very good job of hijacking our educational system by keeping incompetent teachers with brainwashing political agendas which also exsist in our colleges and sub-par teaching methods....it makes you afraid to send your kids to school......what are we to do?