I dont think GWB is all that smart, but I also think that shouting bad things at him from all corners wont work while he is president.
He's foolish not to listen to criticisms, but okay he's a fool. So what?
What will work is if someone, somewhere can propose a more hopeful vision than the one he has.
What is your more hopeful vision for the Middle East?
I don't exactly know why we are over there meddling anyway. I know that Israel is our Ally and if they need our help they will ask for it. We went to Afghanstan to get OBL. He's no longer there why are we.
We went to Iraq for WMD but if there was (and I think there was) they are not there now. Why are we still there now. I don't think nation building is our forte - our country is in worse shape than Iraq let's concentrate our our land. We deserve it.
As for how can we escape the ties of the middle east because of oil. I don't believe we are or need to be dependent on foreign oil. First of all we have plenty. Second of all Hitler (a long long) time ago in the 1930's and 1940's had synthetic gas made from coal. We know cause Patton got ahold of it and used it. If we can afford NASA and if we can have Space Stations and with all of the technology that has evolved since the 1940's surely we can make a good clean synthetic fuel from coal. We have some of the cleanest coal in the world. Utah get's half of it's power from coal and that's before piling technology and money into making a clean cheap synthetic fuel. We have synthetic oil for autos even now and it's not all that more expensive than natural auto oil.
It would be great for the US and bad for the Middle Eastern countries especially the ones sponsoring terrorism.
Look at it this way - we went in there for Reasons significant to our National Interests - WE FOUND OUT WE'RE GOOD AT WAGING WAR - are behind the curve AT WAGING PEACE - we have to learn this lesson soon and well - for everybody's sake ..
Further and even more importantly WE ARE LEARNING OUR CURRENT POLITICAL SYSTEM DOESN'T FUNCTION WELL UNDER THE DEMANDS & STRESSES OF THE 21ST CENTURY - Professional Politicians make Lousy Managers >>
Pete's plan for political reform is the answer, Give the People - Transparency, Performance and Accountability ..
pete(popo)evans
I'm not saying you are wrong but I disagree on the reason's we went to war. We went to Afghanstan to get rid of OBL. He's gone there's no reason to be there still. We went to Iraq just to be there,(in my studied opinion)(just like we did with Viet Nam) both were contrived wars and we could have won in Viet Nam at any time, but we were there just to be there. Well that's not entirely true, we were just ther because somebody was making money. Just the same in Iraq, (people are making money again)(I haven't seen such a badly run war since I was in Viet Nam). Capture towns and sections then leave. Then have to go back and capture them again. Rules of engagement that ensure we will not win. Not closing the border, just like in America. We're afraid of terrorist infiltrating into America and 6 years after 9/11 no fence. They are playing us for a fool. What threat is Afghanstan, Iraq, or Iran to us? None. We could take the whole country in a second. If there are no WMD why don't we extract ourselves? War on Terror, nah Terrorists are loose in Pakistan, Terrorists run Gaza, Terrorists run West Bank, Terrorists run the poppy fields which support the war against us. Terrorists practically run and run free in Lebannon. You tell me where there's a war on terror or at least one that affects our national defense.
But my point was we can't do anything here until we wean ourselves off of oil from countries that do us harm including the Middle East and below our southern border or elsewhere. We have the means we have the technology and we have enough tar oil, shale oil, real oil to last over a thousand years or more. When we do that and let the middle east go about it's merry way then we can turn our attention to America, alot of jobs will be created and we can get on with fixin what needs fixin here. There are very many other things that need fixin in America, I know. Judicial's broken, Tax's broken,
Health's broken, Congress's broken, Finance's broken, InfraStructure's broken, Immigration's broken, Security's broken, yes lets get undependent of what we are able to then fix America.
gwb is a boy in an adult's world........
fighting terrorism with an army is lunacy..............repeating age old historical blunders..........
(we're talking about 100,000 persons dead (usa & iraqi's).... & millions displaced..........ugh)
"warism(s)" is/are american's only answer to all our problems...........ugh
defending our democracy by sacrificing their iraq....ain't right....
There seems to me to be a misconception as to American values and desires. We (americans) like to sit in our yards eat BBQ and mostly lay around. We are big lazy "dogs". The problem is Americans, at least understand, the saying about junk yard dogs. The rest of the world doesn't. Everybody in America knows you don't tease the junk yard dog, you don't go in his yard and bother him, and whatever under absolutely no circumstances do you ever let him out of his cage.
The Muslim terrorists teased us, then they came in our yard and bothered us but the biggest mistake they made is they broke rule number three. They let us out of our cage. We are not going back in our cage until we tear up the neighborhood, bite everyone in sight and make a general nuisance of ourselves. The world will not be a better place and a whole bunch of countries will wish, Usama died during childbirth. We could debate who is right who is wrong and accompanying knashing of teeth but the reality is we are on a mission to bite terrorists and we are not going back until we are tired and world is scared. Unless there is a big BBQ of middle eastern proportions.
But we aren't.
Common sense - the cure for stupid!
If we leave Iraq we are giving Iran control of the oil fields in Iraq and the straights of hormuz, I wonder if they have our best interests in mind.
Read my first post a more hopeful vision for the middle east and for America is our getting rid of our dependence on Middle Eastern oil. Good for them and good for us. We have enough shale, tar and oil to last over a thousand years. We can then get strong and tough and prosper. The Biggest war in the world WWII lasted only 4 years once we joined in. It involved the whole world. This involves two backward countries either crap or get off the pot so to speak, I say.
genesal... The main stream media and the Dem propaganda machine has the whole country looking through smoke and mirrors. The war is a war, period. it is not clean and tidy. Alternative media information sites and programs that disagree with the propaganda are suppressed by the critics with their own agenda. The Iraqi stock market is up and running it has been for 4 years. The Kurds are not only building, they are building resort area condos. Tourists, from The Black sea region, are going to the Kurdish areas for vacations. There are numerous factories in the Basra area that are manufacturing goods and exporting to other countries in the region. A vast majority of the country is thriving. The media only provides info from the Bagdad area. The old saying about news is true, "If it is not RED it's not read".
I have read a number or your posts and find it hard to believe that with all your knowledge of the Middle East and the history of Islam, you cannot see through the smoke screen. Get a Grip we are kicking butt all over the world. The terrorists made a mistake, just as the Japanese did in WW II, they underestimated the "cowboys" and the unwashed masses of the U.S. My regret is the military does not take a page from the Israeli's book. Send out a couple of dozen sniper teams and close the borders of Iraq.
stumpy we are kicking butt in iraq kinda like we kicked butt in nam.
the war in iraq has made our military weaker and stretched to the limit.
other countries don't fear us anymore due to the clowns who have directed this war. if at anytime in history other unfriendly countries would like to go to war with us it is now. your assessment that the msm not reporting all these great accomplishments in iraq is in my opinion ludicrous. if these good things were happening fox would run it continuously 24/7, but they aren't.
We are not kicking Butt and we are not defeated. Rather I see us and them both playing a sort of "Rope-A-Dope" limbo until we delineate a Grand Strategy that starts to realistically synch what we Can do with what we Ougta do and that is true to our nations values and focused clearly on out National Interest. We did that magnificently in WWII and over an extended period in the Cold War much to the benefit of mankind (George Kennan the best here at this). We need a similar effort now in this complex and confusing world and we can learn much and repurpose from our previous successful attempts to do so.
DC - 3rd ward - milligansstew08@yahoo.com
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
yes but we had real leaders back then john.
You're trying to tell me about war? Why's that. Do I sound like I don't know what war is about? Where did you come up with that? Were you in the military if so doing what, in what war? Yes, I know about body parts, heads cut in two, cowards, heros, carrying children with no legs, picking up men with holes clear thru their stomach, rows and rows of soldiers who had just lost their legs, only one complained, a man with no place on his body withoout stiches, rockets landing nearby, motars, jet fuel dump fires lasting 16 hours, claymores, piano wires, frags, ears on string necklaces. So what is it you are trying to tell me. I volunteered for war to boot, twice.
They're not trying to "Kick Ass And Take Names" any more than they did in Viet Nam. Alternative media information sites? Main stream media? I don't understand.
Let's see we're kicking butt in Afghanstan? Their inviting the Taliban back. Where's the poppys? Kicking butt in Iraq? Where's the Iranian Weapons? IED's? Borders closed? Where's the infiltrators? Now where else in the world are we kicking butt? Oh, nowhere!
Are we fighting terrorists anywhere else? Like in Gaza, West Bank, Lebannon, Syria, Iran, Pakistan. No?
I didn't think so. Here at home? I think not, in fact the US House voted 300+ to 0 to recognize Ramadon. It doesn't sound like much of a war on terror to me.
If you notice that when the Japanese did attack us over a million Americans enlisted and most of the folks back in the US helped out either directly or indirectly by working in defense factorys or collecting rubber, bacon grease for rapid fire ammo and rationed food. Practically the whole US got involved. Now there was a war. We haven't fought a war with that gusto since.
A surge after 4 1/2 years only 30,000 men for 4 months. Boy that's really kicking some butt. What was wrong with sending enough fighters in the first place and closing the borders securing cities and keeping them secure kind of like Patton did.
I happen to look at all the facts and I have many sources and make up my own mind. Kinda been like that my whole life and I think I've earned that right. I think what we should take from Israel is to really fight like they did in 1948 and 1967. Now they are the ones fighting the terrorists and we could use some lessons from them. Not by trying to fight with one arm tied behind you and on one foot. I don't know if you're infering I a lib or leftist or something but if your position is right or even far right I guarentee I'm much more right than that.
Genesal ...The Dem smoke screen is that are military is a failure in Iraq. We are wasting our time chasing terrorists. We should be begging the UN and France for help securing our borders. That the congress should cut off money, body armor, ammo, troops and throw our military to the wolves. That John Kerry would go on National television with a diagram of the soft spots in our current body armor. After his revelation insurgent snipers began to target those soft spots. Cut off money for surveillance of terrorists calling cells in the US. Cut off money for improved MRAP vehicles. Use Moveon .org to denigrate General Petraes. Block the Marine silent drill team from performing in San Francisco.
According to LexisNexis Sgt.Paul Ray Smith was killed in action in 2024 was the awarded the first Medal of Honor, two months after receiving this award posthumously, there was 90 mentions in the media. At the same time there was 4,677 for the supposed Quaran abuse (never proven) and 5,159 for the court-martialed Abu Ghraib guard Lyndie England.
It is not only a disgrace to all those who served this country in the military but a disgrace to every American citizen and family member that sacrificed part of their lives for this country. You don't need to be on the front lines to be a patriotic American. There are millions of Americans who serve their country in mundane day to day jobs. Fireman, policeman, defense workers, manufacturers and truckdrivers.
Read the article "Modern Heros" by Robert Kaplan, in The Wall Street Journal 10/4/2007 page A19.
One last thing, I find it disturbing whenever there is a conversation about the war or the military, the vets fall back into this " you don't know anything, I was there" attitude. They continually use the"I'm a Vet" card to try and close down any objections to their arguements. I appreciate your service, but when you try and degrade me, by throwing it in my face, you only sound like a crybaby.
good post genesal. the most important part being that americans have been asked to sacrifice nothing, can't win a war that way.
stumpy i may have bad memory but didnt you post to me once that you yourself are missing a limb or limbs due to service to our country?
No S&S... I said I gave half an arm so people could be free to exercise their rights. I did not lose an arm in Vietnam. Someone else assumed I lost an arm in the Vietnam War and made that statement. The reality is I worked for the Department of Defense, for 15 years, refitting ships for the US Navy. I lost 40% of the use both of my arms in a shipboard accident. This may not seem to some to have sacrificed for my country but after you spend twenty years with two bad grabbers you realize, I was as much apart of the military as anyone that enlisted. I could have made twice the money working in private industry, but I felt I was doing my part to keep America free. I felt it was my duty to make sure, the troops in the field had the best equipment I could build.
I did not get a fond farewell. I did not get a medal, or a thank you from my president. I was dumped out the gate like a piece of meat. I have no regrets. I still believe it is my duty to do everything I can to make sure our military still gets the best that America can supply. Not everyone is in the field, but I am a soldier all the same and I defy anyone to say I did not do my best to keep America free. I am still working towards than goal, only now I use a pen instead of a gun or rachet set.
Stop trying put words/ideas in other people just because they don't agree with you. I'm not talking about just being a patriotic person, anybody can do that, it cost's nothing. Yes and I hate persons that just Yells Support the Troops, til they come home then you can bad mouth them as a group all they want, behind a keyboard to boot.
If You Can Read This Thank A Teacher
If You Can Read This In English Thank A Soldier!
My original post was in regard to the thread's question of "What is your more hopeful vision for the Middle East?"
My more hopeful vision, I repeat, is to rid our dependence on foreign oil, especially in the middle east period. We'd never have to go there in the first place if we used the tar, shale and oil we already have in the good old US of A. Nothing to do with Iraq or any other war.
I have one and one only complaint about the war, we're not fighting hard enough and bad enough to win.
Whenever we actually win the war, with no oil dependency, there will much less reason to go back.
What is your more hopeful vision for the Middle East? That we never need their oil again.- Sign in or Sign up to post comments
- report as spam
S&S see My other comment above. The discovery channel had an excellent piece on the Iraqi economy. Fox news occasionally runs some programs about encouraging developments but like all main stream media, Fox is looking for ratings, and likes to leave out the facts that ruin a good conspiracy. Blood and gore sells. Happy stories don't.
My vision for the Middle east. I think if we (America) can help these people get on their own feet and not depend on handouts. A more capitalistsociety has a tendency to self eliminate things that hold back an area. Then they may be worth trading and doing business.
S&S The answer to your question above "memories are fickle things"