I'm posting this here because the Prior thread is just too much of a mess now. This is regarding some of the feedback related to my conversation with Andy of Unity08 last night (9/20):
First of all, I would ask those who are unfamiliar with me to scour the boards for prior postings. You'll find that I have in the past advanced a number of critiques and skepticisms. I state this now because I want you to realize that I am a fellow delegate, before I tell you that after the conversation with Andy, I have a very different look at Unity08. And it's a very positive one. I get it now. And they do too. They always did, but at times we just drift off into conspiracy land and develop a group paranoia. This is politics after all, so I suppose we are all used to deception and tend to think the worst by default. But let's not succumb to that.
I need to suggest, and if necessary, implore you to consider the reality of what we are trying to do here. This is a movement that aims to win the most powerful political position in the world. Everything about American politics will be changed after this (note that I chose to use the world "will", not "might be"). This movement is not invisible to the Democratic and Republican party. Publishing the game plan outright before you even have a chance to enact it would be a pretty bad strategy, wouldn't you agree? The element of surprise is essential.
Now, Andy didn't lay out the grand plan to me. But he did tell me enough that I can, with great confidence, state the following:
- This isn't a showpiece. The Unity leadership is NOT going to pick a candidate behind the scenes and make it seem like we picked them.
- The Unity leadership will also NOT pre-develop the platform and hand it over to us in take it or leave it fashion.
- It *really* is going to be up to us. Read that sentence again. Let it sink in. They are and will be no more than a conduit of the will of the people and will provide the mechanics for us to debate, cooperate, summarize, and unify. They are NOT going to be the ones choosing. That's why this is different.
I'd like you to consider the following statement: "What if we created a software program and website by which everyone can add and edit articles, and the result, with a lot of people contributing, is that we could have an online, realtime encyclopedia." Sounds nutty, huh? Well, that's how wikipedia started and that's what it is today. It's the same software we are using for the delegate wiki. The vision works. Cooperation towards common goals by people of geographic disparity is the killer app of the internet.
The Unity we will have in the coming months is going to provide the same sort of cooperative infrastructure. They really do intend for US to decide everything. There will be groups and solidarity, debates and negotiations by the delegates. From what I can see, the official Unity structure will never be anything more than a conduit by which the will of the people can be united towards a common goal.
In short, the difficult part is NOT going to be the negotiations between the delegates and the Unity leadership. It's going to be between each other. It's about US learning to cooperate with each other and to come to a common decision that results in a better platform than what the parties decide internally. Unity will just be the conduit between the will of the people and the candidates.
I did express to Andy, however, in very direct terms that the silence is a bit too much sometimes. I explained how it's easy to go into paranoia land. He will take that to the leadership on our behalf. It's just that, of all the things they have to do in the day, it's better if they spend 2 hours on preparing for the future instead of deflecting angry rants by a handful of delegates in here. And right now, I agree. I do suspect we'll see a lot more communication as we proceed, but just remember this is a long road and there is a lot to do.
Keep the faith and let's be in it to win it...because we can.
-GP (gp.in.minnesota@gmail.com)
Join the Unity08 Delegate wiki today! http://www.unity-usa.org
I never doubted that we would make the choices for the American Agenda and the final nominee. You right to point to the wiki you have created. Having rules and moderation around a focused objective will fill that "guidance" gap that so many whin for and then ridicule when they get even a hint of it.
Bill"for what we are together"
bill713.unity08@sbcglobal.net
Did I attach the link referring to this thread to your comment? If I did I wasn't singling you out with my counterpoint. Sorry if I made you feel that way, if that's in fact what I did.
I was instead trying to direct people interested in this specific topic to this thread and I suppose I picked yours to attach to in Pete's thread since it was in the middle of the debate.
In any case, I hope it's helpful.
-GP (gp.in.minnesota@gmail.com)
Join the Unity08 Delegate wiki today! http://www.unity-usa.org
My thoughts about the wiki.
The wiki is a good place for new delegates to go to get a good feel for what the Delegates are collectively assembling. IMO, the more we build something together, the better will be our appreciation for what we are trying to accomplish.
The emerging American Agenda platform portion is developed based on our discussions here. Where there is a concensus, it is fitting that it be added to the agenda in the appropriate section. There are spots to submit both pro and con arguments. Nothing is set in stone but, this part of the wiki does provide organization and give meaning to our discussions here. We the delegates can shape it as we believe it to be appropriate.
Other areas of wiki development exist as well as the agenda itself. Candidate profiles can be added and developed such that delegates can add information and notes that are helpful to all of us. Editing the profiles can highlight the advantages and disadvantages of each potential Unity08 candidate.
There is a Delegate section where personal editorial articles and ideas can be submitted for others to read. This area presents an opportunity for people to submit thoughtful essays on all aspects of the emerging American Agenda. This is a good opportunity to try and influence fellow delegates that is different from the shorter chat style format here on the Shoutbox. Contribute your favorite resource reference to the Delegate Library so that we have a diverse resource where we can go to study the issues from different perspectives.
As Ballot Access and membership growth are important Unity08 goals, that section promises to continue to grow with your help and as local organizations develop and choose to share information.
Other areas are emerging and developing as people choose to become involved. It is fascinating to see it happen.
The part I like best is that once I make a contribution, often times when I go back to that original entry I find that someone else has built something on top of that.
Phil
Been to the Unity08 Delegate wiki lately? Join today!http://unity-usa.org
Lets uncorrupt our government!
Bill I think you mistake trying to coordinate individuals and teams as "needing guidance" If you have every been involved in coordinating several jobs, different trades, project deadlines docking procedures, crane service or evacuations you would understand the concerns some of us have as to viablity of a system where the troops are getting zero feedback from teams in an ongoing effort. We understand "they" are seeing what we are doing but one way communication will never work if it is not in sync with their ongoing efforts. At a minimum we need someone like GP, Steve, Popo or you to be the eyes and ears of us all. If you think we are all on a "need to know" basis than the system has not changed it just has a new name. As one of the "whiners" as you say. I have managed to pull more "need to know" guys sorry butts out of the fire than I care to remember and all because of a lack of communication. "When you are up to your butt in alligators, don't forget you were there to drain the swamp"
To re-iterate one of my points in the start of the thread, Unity08 will be structured in a way that requires all of us to find a way to get along. We'll be forming groups and coalitions based on our locale as well as various stances on issues.Those who find a way to get along and unity will have more strength and influence in this community than those who refuse to cooperate and just want to remain solo.
I wouldn't choose the words "needing guidance", but instead would suggest that we can all learn from each other. Some of us are very knowledgeable in certain matters. For example, Steve Beller is a doctor as we know. In examining his work relating top Health Care on the wiki it's rather obvious that he has a lifetime of special knowledge. I feel sheepishly uninformed about the matter as I digest his knowledge.
If the end goal is to develop a strong, intelligent, and workable platform we need to absorb wisdom like what Steve has offered and add it to our own. Whether or not we want to call this "guidance" or not is up to the reader, but I would assert that the fact remains that we ALL can and need to learn from each other.
I would want Steve to have a strong and prominent voice in the matters of Health Care. Why? Because his credentials warrant it. His experience is worth a lot more than the bumpersticker slogans and easy answers promoted by the other parties. With his help we can dig into the matter and getter a better understanding of it. But that does require that we defer leadership to him on this topic. To learn requires a teacher. This means that Unity will proceed with all of us being both teachers and students depending on the topic.
Unity is about cooperation and working towards that common goal. That requires learning from those who have bits of wisdom we don't possess. The next year or so will be an extraordinary experience in learning and cooperation, and by extension, our platform will be far wiser than anything the other parties are advancing.
-GP (gp.in.minnesota@gmail.com)
Join the Unity08 Delegate wiki today! http://www.unity-usa.org
Excellent Additions, and I would love the job of being your eyes and ears if it's OK with Phil W, Steve, GP and John Milligan ..
Pete (popo)
Because all I hear coming from Andy is simple run-of-the-mill, boiler-room phone-speak. A message Andy has probably given out over the phone hundreds of times a night.
And no, GP; I don't agree. Our plan, that of creating an authentic political platform from scratch directly from the Peoples' input, empowered by the communicative dynamics of the Internet, is something we should have published a year ago.
The thing you have to remember, GP, and, apparently, the thing that Unity08's leadership has forgotten, or perhaps never knew in the first place, is that the authentic voice of the People, empowered by the Internet, is unstoppable.
The suggestion that we must keep this unstoppable power under raps because the other two parties might find out about it, is laughable. By Unity08's own propaganda, the other two parties are hopelessly corrupted by special interests. They cannot seriously compete with the true voice of the People even if they wanted too.
Lastly, you will never win the most powerful political position in the world if you have to rely on the element of surprise. That kind of talk comes from perceived political weakness, not strength. We should have been open, straight forward about how and why we were going to win from the get-go. Even if we had started a year ago, by now we should have been only half way completed with Unity08 political agenda, growing out of the Shoutbox into the state organizations by sheer growth by about this time. Suggesting that things are going to change soon is already too late in my view. Corners will have to be cut and I fear the first to go will be the Peoples' voice.
ex animo
davidfarrar
Dave, nothing is inevitable until it happens. Once again you forget the crap shoot nature of this political game. Unity is feeling its way and you expect all the loose ends neatly tied. Well, it just does not work that neatly and its a tough tough game and they need us (and you) to help figure out a way forward!
DC - 3rd ward - milligansstew08@yahoo.com
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
This issue about the lagging delegate enrollment has been going on for sometime now. It's not a new problem. Do you honestly see them actually doing anything that will increase membership to over 200,000 a month for the next ten months?
Their answer to this problem is to schedule another Colbert Show and go around patting themselves on the back over the spike in membership Unity08 just received.
And you are wrong, politics is completely predictable to be unpredictable. That's why you need leaders who can change strategies when things don't go as predicted. I see none of that happening with Unity08.
ex animo
davidfarrar
Grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change,
the courage to change the things we can,
and, the wisdom to know the difference.
Phil
Been to the Unity08 Delegate wiki lately? Join today!http://unity-usa.org
Lets uncorrupt our government!
Grant us the understanding that change is necessary and inevitable
and to accept it willingly when it benefits humankind ..
pete(popo)evans
Dave I have said here ad nauseum that the low numbers are from failure to delineate/focus on issues/agenda centrist parameters, centrist candidates to actively consider, and thus the sparse branding and recruitment that is bumping along at low levels. But it is definitely NOT to late as you seem to feel. The clock for 2024 IS ticking though and Unity needs to pick up all 3 areas (I-C-B) in order to get the spike they seek. We shall see what we shall see on their ability to adjust with the changing circumstances of this election in the next 3 months (they are key). We the delegates can help (rather than whine) with issues and candidates I feel up to a point, but at some point soon Unity Leadership will have to take command and get this show on the road and provide a direction and some meat to the bones on I-C-B. Nothing is inevitable UNTIL it happens!!
DC - 3rd ward - milligansstew08@yahoo.com
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
Once again you're speculating beyond what you know. I find it amusing that you believe you can speak with such authority on a phone conversation you weren't involved in.
I asked for five minutes and he gave me an hour. I pressed for answers on the things that concerned me and other delegates and he was very candid in his replies. There was nothing at all boiler plate about them, and in working at a large corporation that loves boilerplate language, I know what it sounds like.
As much as this may pain you, David, you might have to just accept that you're wrong about this. But I am at least encouraged to know that you hope that I am right ;)
-GP (gp.in.minnesota@gmail.com)
Join the Unity08 Delegate wiki today! http://www.unity-usa.org
How about this:
We continue our conversations and work on the wiki for a few more weeks and see what develops as far as U08 leadership's feedback goes. In the mean time, Andy will serve as the liaison.
Should David's fears--that the People's input will be ignored--are proven true (which I strongly doubt), then they will be embarrassed mercilessly by our discussions on these forums and by our expressions of good will through hard work. And since GP has ultimate control of the wiki, and we all seem to trust him, the work we're doing would still be useful to other centrist grass-roots organizations to whom we will be collaborating. In that way, our New American Agenda (and the wiki on which it resides) is not vulnerable to internal and external forces, which means to me that the People maintain control no matter what!
Note that similar concerns about power and control can be expressed about our own delegates. That is, with certain delegates being given the power to organize the wiki's contents, should we not remain vigilant about one of us hijacking the Agenda-building process and diverting it from the People's control. While I'm not fearful this will happen, and while I'm honored to be one of the organizers, we should all insist that there be ongoing transparency in what we do and why. The nature of the wiki does, in fact, provide some of that transparency (through comprehensive revision tracking), which is good. And I'm taking great pains in assuring everyone has an equal say in the Agenda building process.
Steve Beller, PhD
Steve, there must be periodic reviews and re-evaluations as we proceed. I believe such a process is both necessary to maintain focus and is needed to prevent any would-be hijacking of the American Agenda. The duty to perform such reviews and evaluations is the right of every concerned delegate that no one has the authority to circumvent.
Take the wiki for example. The purpose of the wiki is to provide an organized way to assemble our collective views from the Shoutbox and to challenge the viability of whether individual items are in harmony with a successful procedure that will accomplish our goals. The wiki is the best tool at our disposal to achieve something more coherent than just the Shoutbox. I am personally open to any other ideas that would help us organize our information better. Remember, one underlying fact in this entire process is that the delegates have the final authority and only they can exercise that authority.
Regarding the wiki, who can hijack it? I see four possibilities: the organizers, individual delegates, U08, or outside spoilers. Since anyone can post, how do we review and evaluate? Simple, post objections to entries in the agenda building section of the wiki here in the Shoutbox. To date I have not seen any objections to any of the entries made so far. The only objection that has been registered is the one that challenges the right of delegates to proceed as they see fit. Since when is it valid to object based on the false premise that concedes delegate authority to U08 rather than to exercise it? The wiki is a collective effort of delegates that doesn't require U08 permission. To seek permission is to give up authority. The only suggestion for making additions to the wiki agenda building has been that the issue be raised first in the Shoutbox. Posting the resulting concensus falls on everyone. If the moderator doesn't move fast enough for anyone's liking then, by all means, post it yourself.
Okay, if the wiki is not hijacking the people's input, is something really doing that? The repeated claim is that we are not meeting projected membership predictions. I am not sure how membership expectation shortfalls alone constitute a hijacking by U08 but, lets consider it anyway. IMO while that objection may have some minor merit, I believe it operates under a false premise. Again, that premise is that U08, and not the delegates, have final authority for the form that the American Agenda assumes. IMHO it is incumbent upon the delegates to use all the tools at their disposal to shape the American Agenda. If predictions are not being met, what can we do to change that? Organizing local groups, obtaining Ballot Access, posting to the wiki, recruiting new delegates, writing letters to the editor, and working together on the Shoutbox are just a few ways that have been suggested. It seems to me that based on performance in those areas, the American Agenda is not being hijacked so much as it is that we need to focus our efforts better.
There comes a time when we have to look inward to see where we can improve. There also comes a time when improper use of this forum works to our disadvantage more than anything else because it obfuscates the harmony which will attract others to the fold. I apologize in advance if this post is seen in that vein. My intent is to resurrect the battle cry and to pledge my support. I am of the opinion that placing blame, based on speculation, is counter productive. It is that behavior that will cause me to rethink my commitment more than anything else. I am pleased that Andy has come aboard.
Phil
Been to the Unity08 Delegate wiki lately? Join today!http://unity-usa.org
Lets uncorrupt our government!
Those that are making positive contributions are here because we see this as a way to help ourselves and the people we care about .. we have to place our trust in someone : what's more logical and American - than to place it in those that provided us with the vehicle to achieve our goals .. Why on earth would they Hijack anything from us - we are the key to their success ..
I don't think we have to fear the DEMS or THE REPS, they will never offer the people what we plan to provide ..
Keep Moving - like I said : CATEGORIZE - PRIORITIZE - CREATE A CHECK LIST & PLAN - WORK THE PLAN ..
Grandpa Evans
PS DONT FORGET .. click on www.america-21stcentury.com todays posting is about You, Steve, GP and John.
We are venturing into new territory for which established models don't exist. What we're doing is emergent, as we had said initially, so we have to stay on our toes and be self-reflective and flexible all the way. My optimism comes from the fine people involved in this adventure!
Steve Beller, PhD
I will also make a good attempt to list times when I won't be around on my user page. In my absence Steve has the ability to do just about everything I can, and every user has the ability to make edits and such. Anyone who as any questions should feel free to contact/call me.
Behind the scenes I am working on developing the portal framework so that each section will be more professional looking (something like this: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Portal:Mathematics )
The content contribution rate is really going up now. Things are starting to take shape. Keep up the good work everyone!
-GP (gp.in.minnesota@gmail.com)
Join the Unity08 Delegate wiki today! http://www.unity-usa.org
I for one agree, press on - and let's Create An Agenda that CAN ACHIEVE OUR COMMON OBJECTIVE "To Take Back America From The Political System That Hijacked It" .. AND YOU KNOW A KEY INGREDIENT HAS TO BE ...
.. "THE MEANS TO BE ABLE TO LEVERAGE CHANGE IN CONGRESSIONAL OPERATING POLICIES & PROCEDURES"
Specifically : Establish Transparency, Eliminate Political Gridlock, Partisanship and Pandering To Special Interests
THIS IS AN AGENDA That Neither DEMS NOR REPS - will STEAL, BECAUSE IT WILL EXPOSE THE NATURE AND EXTENT OF THE WAY THE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN RAPED BY THE SYSTEM IN RECENT YEARS .. And that's not cynicism - that's reality !!!
KEEP OUR EYES ON THE DONUT - NOT ON THE HOLE ..
Good Luck - God Bless ..
pete(popo)evans