Sorry for suggesting so many new issues. I'm not getting gabby, actually I'm reading and understanding more of other postings, and being inspired.
Many years ago, General Motors was the countries biggest employer. That was a long time ago and we dont have as much manufacturing superiority anymore. So GM is a global company now and doesn;t employ as many US workers.
Times change.
Still, I do think that in Middle America it is vexing that the leading employer in our country is Walmart. You can talk economic theory and political movements all you want, there's something wrong with the economy for that to be our current status.
What went wrong?
Believe it or not, I also have pondered this one a bit. Perhaps it's because I also grew up in Michigan, though I'm a yooper (Lost a lot of respect points in your mind, didn't I? :P ) I did go to college at WMU, though, so I have lived at both ends of the state.
When I look at GM vs Walmart, the first thing that strikes me is that Walmart is just a conduit. It's a super-efficient product tunnel between China and US consumers.
Michigan's auto industry, however, boomed through Ford's original assertion that if the people that made his cars could also afford them, he'd have a much larger customer base. It makes a lot of sense too. It's not so much that Walmart's workers can't afford a lot, it's that the goods they sell are NOT made in the US. Thus the real wealth flow is out of US Consumer's pockets and into China and/or Walmart.
The Walmart workers really aren't sharing in the good times in the same way that the auto industry workers did (in the good times).
That's make $.02 (worth about $.01 these days)
-GP (gp.in.minnesota@gmail.com)
Join the Unity08 Delegate wiki today! http://www.unity-usa.org
Its my goal in life to live in northern Michigan (UP/LP ok). I'm still in southern MI.
No wonder you're so smart. OK better go to pete's site...
Ha! Such flattery. But we're all smart if we're here on Unity08 right? ;)
The UP is lovely. I still find myself calling it "home" after all this time. Just no jobs there, really. I actually loved the Petoskey area a lot during my college years. That was sort of my "ideal" location, though I drifted over here to Minnesota after college where some other Yooper friends of mine had settled. I miss the mild winters and the Red Wings.
Another thing I thought of with the Walmart vs GM economies is that outside of GM there were thousands of other businesses (from parts makers to restaurants) that thrived because GM workers had money in their pockets. In other words a strong middle class.
In the Walmart economy Walmart workers, which are 99% cashiers and simple service type positions, simply spend their meager wages back into Walmart. Thus the number of people participating in the Walmart economy is very few, and largely non-local.
There's a simple truism at work here. If the middle class disappears and all the wealth continues to concentrate in the hands of the few, there's not going to be any more customers to sell those ipods to. The prosperty of those big companies will collapse if the customer base evaporates. The fate of the many will be shared by all given enough time, I suspect.
-GP (gp.in.minnesota@gmail.com)
Join the Unity08 Delegate wiki today! http://www.unity-usa.org
Hey some of my best friends are UPers - from Marquette. Beautiful place!!Growing up in Iowa in the 50's, 60's and 70's and going back twice a year to visit friends and relatives there and in Wisconsin, I have seen how farmers, small towns and manufacturers have gone thru the wringer. I think a lot of the porblem is that we are going thru a quick and unanticipated transition to a Service-Oriented Information-Based economy and away U.S. manufacturing centered one. We are just catching up with the new model and the world markets and it takes time but we will get there. Look at the Foreign investment in this country and it has increased if you stand back and look at it. Sure the manufacturing employment packages are not going to be as sublime as in days of yore but they can and will still be good enough. Iowa has transitioned in the last 40 years from agriculture center to become the Service-Oriented Center of with it's influx of insurance and asset management companies and info processing companies.
What is needed above all is an education transition plan to train for this new agile Service/Info/knowledge-Centric Model and use that to leverage a rebirth/repurposing of the Manufacturing base around that model. We are not there yet and we can get there as other nations have done that adjustment and we will also if we are smart and forward-looking and not backward looking to days gone past.
As for Walmart, well IMO that is a community decision and should be left to the community as they do their own costs-benefits. Some communities love it and in some the locals are trashed. Each must make its own decision based on what is best for them. I do not think the middle class is going away but it is under strain and are going thru tense transition phase that requires constant education and learning and adaption in a world market- something we were not disposed to in the 50's thru the 80's. We must not lose our nerve but keep plugging away. It's a new world now and we must adjust to the new realities and maintain our core values throughout. Most important in all this IMHO is to instill and embed a positive Endowment Future-Oriented Mentality in our policies. To often we are slowed by the persistent negative Entitlement Mentality and grasping for what has passed.
DC - 3rd ward - milligansstew08@yahoo.com
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
My hometown in the UP has a Super Walmart under construction. Community choice? Um, no. They just greased who they had to behind the scenes and the project was off and running before anyone really had a chance to voice concern. That's what you get in small towns with easy-to-sway city council people.
My current suburb: a relatively well off place in the twin cities. We also have a Super Walmart on the way. In this case there was great community involvement. In fact, we filled city hall meeting on a monthly basis for half this year, voicing a unified NO to Super Walmart. Did it matter?
At first it did. The city council shot it down. But then the vote was re-opened by brute force and a mailing campaign was conducted by a proxy company for Walmart. The mailings were misrepresentative, misleading, and in some cases outright untruthful. It became clear that the city council had been influenced (I'll use that kind word for now) and they passed it.
What's our recourse? Well, we could try to vote them out, but that's after the fact.
Community choice? Just an illusion. Seems that power and money can bully and buy results at any level. And I would really have a hard time accepting that this country's "future" consists of a service industry by companies looking to skirt minimum wage.
We're all in this together and I don't forsee the voice of the people unifying to tell our government that its role is to be a avid defender of the will of the Fortune 500. The people should have some say in this. Isn't that why Unity08 was created after all? ;)
-GP (gp.in.minnesota@gmail.com)
Join the Unity08 Delegate wiki today! http://www.unity-usa.org
Hey I agree GP. But should Walmart be banned? Did they do what was legal? What do you think could be done on ther ground to prevent the steamroller stuff and make sure that community choice was not just and illusion? Was/Is there a middle way in all this?? Or was it just an either-or proposition.
DC - 3rd ward - milligansstew08@yahoo.com
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
Well, since a lot happened behind closed doors we really don't know if there was anything illegal. Further, when our entire system of laws is transformed in a way that treats the citizens as a rancher would his cattle, it's really not a matter of what's legal. If those of great power and wealth just write the laws as they see fit, and kick the citizenry out of the way, I'd say there's a bit more at stake.
The community disapproval an illusion? Well, the meetings went on for about 6 hours in which about 30-50 people spoke every time. The ratio of against the project to for was about 48 to 2. The two for it were landowners of the property to be bought. They were the same two each time.
The mailings sent out by the proxy company were very misleading. They painted a lovely picture of a park like setting of a village setting (oh by the way, there's a Walmart in back) and basically inverted the truth/myth points that were talked about in the meetings in person (and supported by the dissenting votes on the council). The park-like village setting is not only not contractually enforced as having to happen, but there were no takers at the time for it. There was just "negotiations" they couldn't talk about.
When did I say Walmart should be banned? I don't recall that I did. I actually agreed with you that it should be a community choice. My point was, quite simply, that there was not a community choice; just a bully's rule. The community was a problem to be managed. And that's why I am here with groups like Unity08: I still think that democracy and community voice are cherished institutions, not problems to be managed.
-GP (gp.in.minnesota@gmail.com)
Join the Unity08 Delegate wiki today! http://www.unity-usa.org
UNTIL - WE THE PEOPLE HAVE SECURED OUR RIGHT TO : Transparency, Performance & Accountability FROM ALL ELECTED PUBLIC OFFICIALS, Local, State and Federal - they are the screwors, we are the screwees ..
In all seriousness, over 3 Months ago, the FBI Published A Report which I reprinted on my Blog - this report stated that incidents of corruption by Elected Public Officials Across the Nation - Increased by over 40% between 2024 and 2024 and was getting worse ..
With all due respect to the great brains in the Think Tanks, Pete's Plan For Political Reform is the only PLAN THAT ADDRESSES THE REAL ISSUES ..
As one Law Professor put it - it has one major flaw, IT'S RADICAL in that it's based on reality and common sense, something that our Professional Politicians - can't or don't want to deal with.
The last thing we should be worrying about right now, is how to make what has to be done MORE PALATABLE TO THE SCEWORS WITHIN THE VARIOUS BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT..
I'm going to do everything within my power - legally and borderline, to see Pete's Plan and UNITY08's New American Agenda become the People's PLAN TO RECLAIM AMERICA FROM THOSE WHO HIJACKED IT FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR BIG MONEY BACKERS.
On that note - I quit for the day ..
God Bless - Stay Well, and find it in your heart and mind - to support the plans and programs of this grumpy old man.
pete(popo)evans
We need to build in (and make sure they are embedded) the mechanisms for full and decent transparency and accountability at the national, state and above all the local levels so things that are so inimical to the community choice. We have to learn how to out organize the big interests at EVERY level and not think that it is easy and is is inevitabl that simply since a majority is against something it will not happen.
These Biggie people are smart and we need to be smarter to counter and well organized. And THAT is what we use to do and de Toqueville use to write so well about that in our character - we use to have a sense of community and be able to organize at a local level to pressure for change and to get things done. I fear that we have become if anything apathetic and that will be our big undoing more so than anything the Biggies will foist on us. We must hold them to account for misleading and make sure it IS a community choice by an informed and activated local citizenry and not a Steamroller.
To that end I think Unity can be a key organizing force if done right.
DC - 3rd ward - milligansstew08@yahoo.com
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
Nice to know I bisect the MI to IA U08 expressway. Mom was born in St. Paul and one brother resides in WI - Go Packers (when the Colts are done)! Nice to have at least one team owned by the people.
Walmart and the service designation seems dug in while the Info-Knowledge mantel hold does not seem so sure. Globalization is making the Info-Knowledge central location unsure. I suspect it will naturally follow where large corporations think they can best quarter it. And that does not necessarily mean America.
No, the American middle-class is not gone. Methinks the trend for its reduction will continue as will the trend to greater disparity between the rich and the poor.
Isn't it nice to know that Sam Walton's descendants are on Forbes' billionaire list?
Indiana - 2nd District
wrayphil@gmail.com
http://unity-usa.org
One of Sam Walton's famous quotes was that if a community didn't want Walmart that they wouldn't come there. They would respect the wishes of the community. Sam expected that good business practices would always pave the way. They wouldn't ever be rejected.
This statement was brought up at all of our meetings. The Walmart people would just look off to the side of the room and ignore the statement. Long gone is the humble spirit of Sam Walton.
I expect mass corruption at our federal level, but I was surprised to see just how terrible it is too at the local level. At times I really do wonder if our levers of democracy are really hooked up to anything anymore, or if it's just a managed debate, with "permissible" civic activity.
You're right about the indifference of Corporations and the country they are hosted in. Once things are less prosperous here, they're likely to take flight. There's nothing that suggests they would act within any vested interest in the nation when most of their elites already live in gated/walled communities like aristocracies of old...
This is why I think Unity08 is so important. We have a chance (based on the reactions of the powers that be) to see just how "radical" a true people-powered movement will be. Just how scary is the will of the people to the powers that be?
-GP (gp.in.minnesota@gmail.com)
Join the Unity08 Delegate wiki today! http://www.unity-usa.org
I'm not surprised that you guys have deep heartland connections. You think like centrists not from idealogy but experience.
Do you think our coastal colleagues comprehend why there's a very strong 40% of voters sitting in the middle party of the country who get ignored every 4 years?
How can we tell them that good internet fundraising and ballot access should not be in the top 5 priorities if you want to make an effective 3rd party movement?
There are 5-10 states for the taking if a credible centrist would show up.
BTW, I share the love for our hearltand sports teams. Red Wings, Packers, Big ten football. Even if we get ignored by Washington its still good living.
Thank goodness for the Big Ten! Notre Dame is in my back yard and I have to watch them with my eyes closed this year.
Indiana - 2nd District
wrayphil@gmail.com
http://unity-usa.org
As a Michigan Wolverines fan I always prefer to watch Notre Dame with my eyes closed ;) Just teasing ya!
I think centrists are actually everywhere. Just as much on the coasts as they are here. I find that the perception we have of certain regions is intentionally skewed. It's usually just prominent groups that paint the perception of everyone. And often, we are encouraged to take the most negative stereotypes as our basis for perception.
So, we might think of California in terms of the San Francisco activist crowd. We might think of the south as Jeff Foxworthy and bible-thumping. We might think of the east coast as metrosexuals (whatever that really means). Perhaps the reason that we in the midwest don't have "our stereotype" is that we live here and therefore would have to go elsewhere to hear what they say about us :P
In any case, my travel experiences,and in having known a lot of people from many parts of the world, have suggested that a lot of things are more fundamental than we'd think. It's just that the political system scares everyone by taking fringe elements and speaking as though they are the majority "over there."
Common sense is a powerful uniter, if it's just given a chance to be heard. That's the battle.
-GP (gp.in.minnesota@gmail.com)
Join the Unity08 Delegate wiki today! http://www.unity-usa.org
That's why I was promoting a "Cornhusker Commonsense" Ticket a few months back in Chuck Hagel - Bob Kerrey. Well since Kerrey might be running for Senate maybe a Hagel-Ben Nelson one might be a doer although both are from same state and can't run together. Truman and Ford were the last Midwesties and we need somebody from thereabouts.
DC - 3rd ward - milligansstew08@yahoo.com
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
I was hoping for Bayh but he has already endorsed Hillary - dutifully maintaining the party line (I think for a later run). Glad to see Dan Quayle is not in the running anywhere.
Indiana - 2nd District
wrayphil@gmail.com
http://unity-usa.org
Vilsack also endorsed Hillary. And I did have hopes for Bayh as well. But there are others from the great Mid West Heartland we could tap like Hagel, Nelson, Tommy Thompson, Bond, Pawlenty, Daschle, Tim Penney (where is that guy now - always liked him!), Jim Leach, Chuck Grassley, John Kasich, John Danforth, George Mitchell, Lee Hamilton, etc.
DC - 3rd ward - milligansstew08@yahoo.com
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
Indiana - 2nd District
wrayphil@gmail.com
http://unity-usa.org
I've been rooting against Norte Dame for a few years now, since they turned down the offer to join the Big ten. But I'd welcome them into the conference with open arms if they would reconsider.
Part of who you are, is who you choose for rivals.
Michigan v. OSU is gonna be real good this year -- again.
I've read about "swing voters", usually from a NY or LA newspaper who describe us as "fickle", that we dont know what we want so we change parties quickly. I think swing voters are people who know what they want and its not a conservative America nor a liberal America.
I'm not sure the coasties understand that swing voting is all about holding your position while the world sways back and forth.
Anyway, we cant win Vermont they'll vote for Hillary, we cant win some of the western states they'll go Republican no matter what. Even if there are plenty of coastal moderates, a lot of those states have been locked up for years.
We can win states like Ohio with the right ticket, its been a while since a third party actually won some electoral college votes.
One of the things to consider is that with Unity08 we're going right up the middle, which means it really doesn't matter in any state if it's strong dem or strong rep. If our candidate appeals to enough of the moderate in each party, it becomes a three way race; only 34% is needed to win.
Beating one whole party while letting the other retain its votes is what's impossible. Winning one third of each major party's voters is quite a bit easier...and that's all we have to do to win.
-GP (gp.in.minnesota@gmail.com)
Join the Unity08 Delegate wiki today! http://www.unity-usa.org
Thx for bringing it back around..
Yes, thats the game plan and its a good one. Thats why I became a delegate and am still hanging around, in case that turns out to be what happens, I want to be part of it.
But if I think that the rule of thirds is our political strategy, then the next thought is, what steps do we take to get from where we are now, to implement the rule of thirds.
Few of the things that U08 are doing now and spending money and time and energy on lead to the rule of thirds result as far as I can tell.
I think the Jesse Ventura election is our best model for centrist success. We need to get on TV in debates and expose the extremists as trying to appease the middle, but really being beholden to liberal and conservative money givers. Start saying things in public that neither conservatives not liberals would dare say out loud because it would offend and alienate their base.
We could start that tomorrow if we could agree on what (agenda) that is.
John keeps trying with the I-C-B posts and you are working hard with the wiki project. Thats cuase you are the good guys.
That the Unity leadership may have a more elaborate plan that leads to a convention in summer 08 leads me to doubt the rule of thirds strategy is a higher priority then something else going on. I'm not going to accuse anyone of a great evil, just that there may be a different goal that I am not particularly interested in.
Why isn't Unity making public statements about our centrist convictions?
Check out the most recent blog post on the site. It talks about the new functionality where every delegate will rank the issues in order of importance. They can change their rank whenever they want too.
So what you essentially get is a 24/7/365 look at what American citizens consider important. Let's not understate this either. Even at 113,000 members, this ranking mechanism, makes Unity08 the largest real time polling mechanism ever assembled. This is a big deal in my opinion.
As the membership goes up, especially after the major party front runners are official and people lose interest, Unity08 has the potential to develop a platform and choose candidates by mandate of thousands, and perhaps over a million voices. In the major parties the platform is written behind closed doors and the primaries are decided by only a bit more.
For the first time in recorded history (hope you can stand my aggrandizing for a moment) we could have a platform and base of support that tells the politicians "take it or leave it" instead of the other way around.
I too harped on Unity to adopt some basic positions, but over time, and in having some contact on the inside, so to speak, I realize that if the leadership did in fact take a position, a few things happen:
1) They run afoul of the FEC laws that are meant to essentially kill the baby in the cradle. There's a concept of "nine deadly words" that I was told of, where Unity08 crosses over into advocating something. If they do it, the FEC laws descend and strangle it.
2) Even if they could get away with it, advocating a position from the top means that their voice has trumped that of the people. They decided for others and that's a cardinal sin in this new world.
When I step back and look at the bigger picture, I "get it." We, the people, passionate but distrusting in our politics just assume that no organization would really form itself and let the raw populist voice speak. Surely, they would steer it and shape it.
But they're not going to. They'll never ever take a position. They intend only to be a conduit of the peoples' will. It's up to us to decide. They just build the infrastructure that allows us to cooperate.
The tough part is getting people to see that vision and to hang around and be part of something without having people or ideas to follow (at least right now). That's where John, I , and others have been stumping for a few ideas.
My thought is that we should present a "reasonable range" of directions we might take, and attempt to get the community to participate in talking about these options. As we come to see each other's side (we all kinda hail from dem/rep and are indoctrinated to varying degrees) we'll end up at a more realistic and centrist type approach. Instead of a raw bumpersticker belief system we should have a more calm and rational foundation; and realistic solutions.
A lot of this will start at the end of this month with the new site functionality.
As to Ventura, yep, it was the perfect model. I remember the debates to this day. He did it just right: don't attack your opponent outright. First compliment his side of the table and then pull to the center with a "but if we look at this issue closer..."
It can work again...
-GP (gp.in.minnesota@gmail.com)
Join the Unity08 Delegate wiki today! http://www.unity-usa.org
I totally agree GP! You explain it very well!! It is a balancing act for sure that I think we can navigate a bipartisan Centrist rational costed-out range of doable implementable options path (not advocate one laid in cement program). We need to start the conversation on these issues on the wiki and in this Forum and hopefully tap some good subject matter experts (maybe eventual candidates) that could give our deliberations and range of options some real good meat that other Centrists and Bipartisans (frustrated with the panderbears shennanigans of the other 2 parties) will be attrracted to. I think we are up to the task!! But above all we need to start the conversation and provide a legit and valid alternative to those frustrated after Feb 2024 in search of such!
DC - 3rd ward - milligansstew08@yahoo.com
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
Even further I'd say Unity08 should be ready to spend some of the cash it has to advertise and bring people here right at that time, when people will be most frustrated over the front runners. Have to get them before the apathy takes over.
Just because this site exists doesn't mean people will come to it after those primaries. People have to know that it exists (or remember that it exists). We better have an active, thriving community by that time. Newcomers need to get roped in and involved at that moment. But most of all the Unity leadership needs to advertise and bring people here to see that there is a thriving community.
That's going to be a catalyst moment for us!
-GP (gp.in.minnesota@gmail.com)
Join the Unity08 Delegate wiki today! http://www.unity-usa.org
Hey maybe we could get the local Uni people lease a Unity Shadow Bus to shadow some of the front runners in the early Promaries/caucus States in January and pepper them with the tough questions and remid that we are here if the Candidate/winners of the 2 party dog and pony show are found wanting. Plant the seeds - The Press will be there in Iowa and NH and SC and elsewhere in Jan so we might as well be also in some way! Iowa is justa short drive from MN ya know and we could get the university Unity ites to organize a shadow something. Just a thought! Call the bus the "Common Sense" or something.
DC - 3rd ward - milligansstew08@yahoo.com
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
That would be pretty sweet. Maybe it could be done. I'm two hours from the IA border and it might be an exciting trip. I wonder if we'll be doing things like that or if we'll be virtual until next year?
-GP (gp.in.minnesota@gmail.com)
Join the Unity08 Delegate wiki today! http://www.unity-usa.org
Too lucrative as an independent to go Big Ten. Just like elections, they stir passion. Most people either love 'em or hate 'em. Can't find many sports fans with no opinion.
Indiana - 2nd District
wrayphil@gmail.com
http://unity-usa.org
With all due respects - if you were to read the postings on my site www.america-21stcentury.com, and the archives on wwwpopopete.com (2 Years work covering every vital aspect of our current situation) ..
1. You will know and Understand Precisely What Happened And Why - all explained in layman's language !!
2. You will know and understand Precisely What Must Be Done To Fix Things - all explained in layman's language !!
3. You will have enough common sense supporting Rationale's - all in laymen's language TO INDICATE WHAT COURSE MUST BE FOLLOWED - To Get Us Out Of The Mess We Are I
Over 60 Years of life experiences - in all areas critical to our past, present and future, provided me with the means to develop and contribute Pete's Plan for Political Reform, its success depends on UNITY08 and its delegates' desire and willingness to fight for Ir's adoption and implementation.
pete(popo)evans
I read thru a few archives and tried a few searched for Economy and business and didnt find much.
Why dont you summarize your findings here in 50-75 words?
Click on www.popopete.com Scroll back to Posting Jan 18 2024 "AMERICA'S COMING OF AGE"
between that and my most recent postings on www.america-21stcentury.com should do it for you.
Its a no brainer really, ANY VENTURE - SMALL OR LARGE : THAT FAILS/REFUSES TO EMBRACE PROPER PLANNING AND MANAGEMENT DISCIPLINES TO COVER CHANGING TIMES AND CONDITIONS - CANNOT AND WILL NOT SUCCEED ..
The Road Blocks To Success For America Are : Lack Of Public Attention/Control Over - Transparency, Performance and Accountability OF All Elected Officials, Local, State and Federal ..
LIKE IT OR NOT - BELIEVE IT OR NOT : If we allow the Current System to remain unchanged in these three critical areas IN 2024 - we will be suffering even worse, socially and economically for the next 6 Years .. we have all the problems we had in 05 plus those created by subsequent failure to break the pattern of Gridlock. Partisanship AND MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF MORE SPECIAL INTEREST MONEY THAT'S BEEN FED INTO THE COFFERS OF THE DEMOCRATS & REPUBLICANS ..
Kim, there comes a time WHEN THERE IS ONLY ONE ANSWER TO A SITUATION - FACE IT AND DO WHAT HAS TO BE DONE TO CORRECT IT - AND LET THE CHIPS FALL WHERE THEY MAY !!!
Pete's Plan addresses the situation and provides a sound and practical means to correct it !!
Please don't ask me to explain the plan again - it's posted many times on this web - in this thread and every topic related to Reform and Agenda Building.
I've got to be frank, it took me almost 60 years to acquire the information that I've condensed into Pete's Plan, not one delegate has been able to present a valid argument against the plans SOUNDNESS, the only argument came from a Law Professor who said "IT'S TOO RADICAL - it's based on realty and truth. Professional Politicians don't like sealing with either" !!
My answer to that is the last thing I'm concerned about now - is satisfying the palate of our Professional Politicians.
Hope this helps .
pete(popo)evans