Will this party recognize the Palestinian people as a nation? I think not. They were never a country, only a territory of Britian, (the palestinian MANDATE). So, should we continue to fund them, now as they are controlled by Hamas, a terrorist organizaion.
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I think you have to recognize them. They were there first. You cant overlook the fact that it was some treaty signed in Europe following WW2 that made them obstacles in their own homeland. I'd rather we were a froce in helping these two sides work out their rather substantial differences (ala Carter) then have us be an extension of the iron fist of imperialism. Just my 2 cents
i like the idea of having the palestinianis controlling the West Bank and Gaza, and Israel the rest; have Jurusalem as a UN Territory.
Of course the Palestinian people are a nation. Who inhabited Palestine/Israel before the exodus from Europe in the 1940s? The Palestinians. The next president needs to be clear of any biases (i.e. no letting AIPAC spies get away with treason in the Pentagon) and try and pursue a constructive dialogue. If any side hinders the road to peace, let them be properly punished.
Israel was never a sovereign country until 1949 when recognized by the United Nations. Yes, Jewish terrorist/settlers declared a new nation in 1948 from the land of Palestine. The only reason the Zionist were able to pull off this illegal act was due to the immediate recognition by U.S. President Harry S. Truman and Supreme Soviet Leader Joseph Stalin. Following the declaration, the United Nation dispatched a U.N. representative to Palestine to resolve the declaration. Jewish terrorist ambushed and murdered the United Nations representative. (Israel's foreign minister is the daughter of the scape goat murder.) In 1967, Israel attacked the U.S. Ship Liberty in international waters. (The weaponry and military resources used were given to Israel by President John F. Kennedy and President Lyndon B. Johnson.) The United States has not had an American government since President Dwight David Eisenhower. Zionist control the government of the United States of America. Today, Bush allegedly spoke about Al Qaeda. Think back to 2024. If you recall, Osama bin Laden told the United States government his organization was going to attack the United States. Why? U.S. support of the illegal Israeli government and open ended U.S. support for Israel's genocide against the Palestinian people. I am an American. I do not give a damn about Israel, Cuba, the Continent of Africa, Kosova, etc. Our country is a republic, not a theocracy. If you were born in the United States or naturalized through the U.S. Department of Justice, then you are an American period. Impeach Bush and Cheney and, hopefully, we can elect an American through Unity 08.
Where else but in la la land can you expect to move into a country, steal the inhabitants land, business, and assets, run them off and NOT EXPECT TO SEE THEM COME BACK WITH DYNAMITE STRAPPED TO THEIR CHEST? ? ? ? ?
I don't know about how you feel about your house.....but if you come into my house... endanger my wife and family, steal from me and try to run my family from our home.....I will blow you away....and I won't feel bad about it.....
I'll tell you something else....If you are aiding and abetting these people...I might be inclined to blow your act up too.
Give me a break.....Israel is not a victim....they were the aggressors.....and unfortunately for them this is all to recent history for it NOT TO HAVE THE BEEN W R I T T E N DOWN.....
Its there...in any library you care to go look at...... or here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
I'm not a neo-nazi.....or a skin head....I'm a lutheran.. an American...and a Retired Marine..and I'm tired of being lied to and having the media shape the truth for me....
I'm tired of being told which politically correct facts I should ignore....
The truth about Israel is this....They stole 8000 sq miles of land....called it Israel .....ran off over 700,000 people and have been fighting since day one to hang on to it.
Was it right what they did? ? ? ? ? ? I don't care
Was it wrong what they did? ? ? ? ? ? I don't care
Are the Jews entitled to this land? ? I don't care
What I do care about is.. every muslim over there is pissed off at the U.S. for aiding and abetting the jews while they have continued to occupy the land they stole....
So its this simple......If Israel wants to steal the land.....go for....If the palestinians want to fight to get it back.....have at it.....
If the jews don't like suicide bombers in their resturants....try giving the PLO some tanks and f-15s I'm sure they will fight fair....
Finally it will end like every other war......the problem is......ITS NOT OVER YET......
BTW....Anyone ever wonder if there is any connection between Israels security and the U.S. in Iraq? GEE YA THINK?
And now that we are there....you would have to be a complete moron to believe the U.S. is a safer place....WE ARE THE BULLSEYE NOW....
U.S. support of Israel has been the prime motive for the attacks on the U.S. Israel has violated international law and has carried out massive terrorism, killing tens of thousands of people. Decent Jews, brave journalists, and honest doctors all attest to the fact that Israeli soldiers are deliberately killing and maiming children.
Unfortunately American mainstream media doesn't offer a forum for serious discussion and honest public discourse about U.S. support of Israel. Many things need to be discussed, for example what Israel actually is. When people talk about the destruction of Israel - if all the Jews and non-Jews in Israel lived totally equally, the way let's say hopefully like in America, that would be, by definition, the destruction of Israel.
If "Unity08" is going to do any good, you need to deal with the faccts that have been supressed.
The policy at the bare minimum hsould be that the U.S. expect Israel to obey international law. Most Americans agree with this but the media keeps them in the dark about the basic facts.
Read some of the posts here. They are diverse as the people looking at this site. The people posting are on both sides of each issue. This is why nothing gets done in our political system. We need to find a point where we can come together. Will either side be happy, probably not! But it will be a first step to UNIFING our country. War, abortion, New Orleans etc. are one onethousand of the issues. Sure they are important to the people involved. But they are not mutually inmportant to each other. Is the answer a third or fourth major party? I for one is not sure. Lets hope the right people are selected for the party but I doubt the even the people on this site would agree to one individual.
It goes without saying that Palestinians should be "recognized" - everybody should be recognized. Not to get too philosophical/spiritual/psychological about this all, BUT if you don't recognize others it is tantamount to not recognizing yourself.
Propaganda aside, the vast majority of people on both sides of the fence want the same thing - for them and their families to live in peace and security. If you take this shared goal as a point of departure, then it is possible to negotiate a settlement. If you fall into the childish trap of "he started, she started" then you deserve to be sent to your room to sulk in private.
I grew up in Israel and my friends and family still reside there. I can tell you that even individuals who hold extremist views (on both sides) are decent caring human beings. They are just scared and mistrustful and have good reasons to be so. Trust and good faith have to be reestablished slowly deliberately and methodically, just as one would do on an individual basis with atraumatized person. This requires poitical wisdom, A LOT OF PATIENCE, and faith. Extremely difficult, but possible in my humble opinion. The alternative is to keep going at it as we have been for generations - more death and destruction, sorrow and grief. We need to go the path of truth and reconciliation as implemented, for example, in South Africa under Nelson Mandela's leadership.
peace, shalom, salaam
But should we continue to fund them, as they are now controlled by Hamas, a terrorist organization!?
If we blindly defend Israel, through vetos at the UN, or otherwise, then we are to some extent responsible for thier actions.
Israel has a right to defend itself, but we must recognize that Israel's interests are not always our interests. We must eliminate our double standards.
The parties in this dispute suffered two of the great humanitarian disasters of the 20th century. One (the Palestinians) at the hands of the other. Until that injustice is fairly compensated, this dispute will continue. A great deal of good will can be generated if Israel were to voluntarily document land claims, without any guarantee of actual compensation.
Moderate, have you researched this topic? Israel uses terrorism all the time, you are being deceptive when you refer only to Hamas. Israel is a system of discrimination, why should we support something so unjust and in such violation of basic principles?
" For a textbook example of why we are hated, consider Gaza and the West Bank. There, a brutal Israeli/U.S.-led cutoff in aid has been imposed on the Palestinians for voting the wrong way in a free election." The Persecution of the Palestinians
The Palestinians are really suffering due to the actions of the U.S. and Israel.
You need to look at what Israel IS.
From the beginning it was a minority of Zionists that sought to impose a system of discrimination against others of different religions. From the beginning Zionists were killing people in order to get their way. The Zionists were even killing Jews who dared oppose the Zionist agenda.
"In making the moral superiority claim, Israel's apologists are either shamelessly denying the irrefutable evidence (see link) and are simply lying, or they are asserting that some forms of murder are morally superior to other forms of murder."
The May 1948 unilateral declaration was by less than 33% of the population who were imposing their will on 67% of the non-Jews. If you believe in the principles of democracy, why "should" the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants accept a minority demand to chop their land up into 7 sections? Why should anyone accept such a thing?
The root problem of the Israel and Palestine conflict is that the Jews running Israel are unwilling to allow non-Jews to have equal rights.
One of the sickest things about this is that this is key to PREVENTING terrorists attacks on the U.S. If we can stop our politicians from abusing people in the Middle east then there would be no terrorists attacks against the U.S. Pundits and politicians are deceiving the American people about why we were attacked on 9/11.
You don't know many of these facts because the media is presenting a distorted picture of what is happening. I already shoed you how an ABC reporter played if off when confronted about what he is doing. Look at how a real journalist gets treated when she tells the truth, she gets death threats.
Tom Murphy said, "U.S. support of Israel has been the prime motive for the attacks on the U.S"
That's a 'You support our enemies, that's why we kill you' sort of logic. It's not how you make friends and influence people. Keep in mind that we provide support to Arab states like Saudi Arabia, yet there have been no Jewish terrorist attacks on us.
I see a lot of support for recognizing the Palestinians as a people in this discussion. I think that's the patch of common ground from which we can start to work.
As a people they have a right to a home. They already occupy the West Bank and the Gaza strip, which Israel seems willing to step back from, by and large, and let the Palestinians take over.
I think the proper course is to facilitate as best we can the transfer of the bulk of those lands to the Palestinians so they may finally declare a country with borders and regain some dignity that will hopefully lower the tensions in the area. Also we should try to make this happen as quickly as possible, because Israel's withdrawal plans are a rare opportunity to do this right or, without enough support, let the situation descend into further chaos. This may require certain contenious details, such as the exact location of the borders, be left for later treaties between the two eventual states.
In order for this transfer to happen there must be an Palestinian organization to act, at least, as its facilitator, if not be a full-fledged government. This already exists in the PA. That it is controlled by Hamas need only be a concern to the degree that it hampers such a transfer to occur. They must be encouraged to soften their tone so that Israel feels they can do their part while saving some face. Also the speed with which this would most favorably occur does not allow for waiting until Hamas is no longer in power.
In order to keep a PA stable enough to last out these events, it may be necessary to support them. It may also be necessary to pull support to make our voice heard. I think we need to apply the appropriate diplomatic tools, both carrot and stick, to finally end this world-splitting conflict.
Supporting the PA at this moment would upend the progress being made right now. The Palestineans are about to vote on a referendum to recognize the right of Israel to exist. Just getting that question put on a ballot was a huge success for the policy of non support for Hamas.
If it passes Hamas will either have to abandon its policy calling for the destruction of Israel, or step down from it leadership position. Only then should we consider supporting the PA.
2 years ago, also right before the Palestinian ellection, Israel supported Palestinians big time - Sharon gave them Gaza, made it free of any jews.
How Palestinians reacted to that jesture of good will? They voted for HAMAS.
I am afraid, that if US will continue to support Palestinians with our dollars, these greatfull people will vote for Al Qaeda
Joe, you echo my thoughts.
Let’s support both Israel and Hamas. It would be a shame if the hard liners in Israel caused the Israel government to give up on the withdrawal. Also there is a potential for the Hamas to regress back to there terrorist ways.
As much as I hate that our country will have to deal with murdering terrorists, if Hamas wish to join the civilized world I support that.
That's an excellent point. Hamas' reaction to this referendum should certainly affect how we would deal with them vis-a-vis carrot and stick diplomacy.
However the PA can still be supported in the meantime to foster goodwill without validating Hamas, because the PA is not only Hamas. Abbas is the one who put the referendum out there. We can support the PA, but only work with him. This would be consistent with the Israeli position. However if Hamas refuses to acquiesce to a positive referendum and does not step down -- the PA as an entity would have to have pressure applied on it to either force Hamas to comply or to leave.
In summary: support the PA until you can't. A completely unrepentant Hamas in complete control of the levers of power at the PA can't be supported.
This party must recognize the Palestinian Authority and we must engage both the Israelis and Palestinians to find a solution to this very difficult problem.
Branding one side as terrorists is not useful as both sides have committed atrocities. Abandoning one side in favor of the other has not proven to be a wise decision. It is time to realize that there are more than 6 million Palestinian Arabs disenfranchised with more than 4 million living in (concentration) camps. It is these people that need the assistance of our party. The interests of the Saudis, the Syrians, and the Egyptians should not dominate America's policy.
We need to determine what this nation of people want for their future. Would the Palestinians lining in poverty and filth in camps refuse to recognize the right of Israel to exist as a nation or would they accept Israeli rights in return for a piece of land and a future?
Do you think we should find out?
Joe I agree we must engage both sides. The problem is that powerful special interests have prevented a diplomatic and legal solution for decades. You are not getting the whole story.
This problem would be over if the U.S. expected Israel to abide by international law. It really is as simple as that.
You really have to do research into this topic because there is a massive campaign of disinformation to serve the Zionist agenda. Their efforts are so effective that they have managed to plant the idea in some peoples heads that even using the term "Zionist" is somehow a bad reflection of the person that uses it. Quite an effective bit of propaganda, bias the debate before it even starts.
What Zionists insist is essential to the definition of Israel is in fact a violation of human rights that we demand for ourselves.
What we have to ask ourselves is why should the we continue to put our lies at risk for a policy that says Israel is not obligated to adhere to international law and to respect basic human rights. Why is any discussion of holding Israel accountable off the table? People need to know it is being kept off the table.
There are basic facts that major media keeps from the American people.
Another example: In the international system, countries simply get recognized. There is no such thing as a "right to exist," it is an invention by Zionists in order to prevent a diplomatic solution.
"This concept “right to exist” was in fact invented, as far as I can tell, in the 1970s when there was general international agreement, including the Arab states and the PLO, that Israel should have the rights of every state in the international system. And therefore, in an effort to prevent negotiations and a diplomatic settlement, the U.S. and Israel insisted on raising the barrier to something that nobody’s going to accept. Certainly, the Palestinians can’t accept it. They’re not going to accept Israel’s existence but also the legitimacy of its existence and the legitimacy of their dispossession. Why should they accept that? Why should anyone accept it?"
A plurality or majority of Americans supports an independent Palestinian state.
I think this subject posted by Moderate should be reworded. It does not reflect how most Americans feel. Can we at least not bias the discussion with an extreme and unjust take on the issue in the topic's opening arguments?
Some of you pundits seem to think
that the Muslim terrorists target America primarily beause we support Israel. Then why did they target England, Spain,Phillipines, Bali and Canada. The answer is because they attack Infidels.
Bin Laden hates America because we left troops in Saudi Arabia after Gulf War I; he actually declared war on the USA, read some current history please. The fact they hate Israel is secondary.
Chicago Al, what you are doing isn't right.
It is beyond the pale for Zionists to lie to us about why we were attacked on 9/11.
Anger at the unjust policy of supporting Israel is the PRIMARY motive of the terrorists. It is despicable for Zionists to try to con the people about why we Americans have been killed and are at risk of being killed. Dishonesty about 9/11 motives robs Americans of the freedom to decide for ourselves if we want to put our lives at risk over specific foreign policies.
Bin Laden's "agenda is a basically political one, though it is couched, of course, in religious language and imagery." p23 al-Qeada, Jason Burke
The NYT's Thomas Friedman lies about bin Laden and Palestine but he fact is bin LAden has talked about Palestine for years. Peter Bergen points out that lies have been pushed: "conventional wisdom has it that bin Laden adopted the Palestinians issue only recently. Reading this declaration [the first declaration of war, issued in 1996] SHOULD PUT THAT CANARD TO REST." p164 The Bin Laden I Know, Peter Bergen
In the 1996 declaration, bin Laden wrote, "I still feel the pain of Al Quds [Jerusalem] in my internal organs" "My Muslim Brothers of The World: Your brothers in Palestine and in the land of the two Holy Places are calling upon your help and asking you to take part in fighting against the enemy --your enemy and their enemy-- the Americans and the Israelis" "It should not be hidden from you that the people of Islam had suffered from aggression, iniquity and injustice imposed on them by the Zionist-Crusaders alliance and their collaborators; to the extent that the Muslims blood became the cheapest and their wealth as loot in the hands of the enemies. Their blood was spilled in Palestine and Iraq. The horrifying pictures of the massacre of Qana [when Israeli forces struck a UN compound on April 18, 1996, killing one hundred] in Lebanon are still fresh in our memory. " p 165 Bergen (see the 1996 declaration of war)
A former member of an extremist Islamic organization which is part of al-Qaeda explained how the organization's recruiters operate on susceptible young men. "Someone approached me in the mosque as I was praying, and started to talk to me about injustice in the Middle East, the poverty, our impotence in the face of Israel. He made me want to listen to him - to find a solution. At first these people don't talk about violence. They concentrate on how much injustice America has caused in the world and how to get rid of this unfairness. They mention Palestine, they call on you to uphold your national dignity, to defend people, and suggest for that you must sacrifice yourself. Then your people will live after you and will always remember you." The young man, himself an Egyptian, speaking in the privacy of a quite courtyard in Cairo, believed this was the way Mohamed Atta was approached. "Al-Qaeda" by Jane Corbin p125
The two terrorist pilots who crashed the two planes into the WTC shared the same motivation. Mohammed Atta, who flew into WTC 1, was described by one Ralph Bodenstein, who traveled, worked and talked with him, as "most imbued actually about Israeli politics in the region and about U.S. protection of these Israeli politics in the region. And he was to a degree personally suffering from that." Marwan al-Shehhi, the pilot who flew into WTC 2, was focused on the same thing, telling a friend, "How can you laugh when people are dying in Palestine?"
The 9/11 Commission reported on the motive of the "mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks." On page 147 of the 9/11 Commission Report, it says "By his own account, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's animus toward the United States stemmed not from his experiences there as a student, but rather from his violent disagreement with U.S. foreign policy favoring Israel. "
At a "9/11 Public Discourse Project" Q&A, Hamilton quickly tries to silence someone who asks why US support for Israel isn't being addressed since it is what drove the plotter of 9/11 to attack us.
Ramzi Yousef, the 1993 WTC bomber, was motivated to attack the US because of US support of Israel: He had no other motivation, no other issue. "Yousef said he took no thrill from killing American citizens and felt guilty about the civilian deaths he had caused. But his conscience was overridden by his desire to stop the killing of Arabs by Israeli troops." Yousef wasn't even particularly religious and his letter to the NYT made no mention of religion: "This action was done in response for the American political, economical, and military support to Israel the state of terrorism and to the rest of the dictator countries in the region."
"Anger at the unjust policy of supporting Israel is the PRIMARY motive of the terrorists." Really?
Bin Laden stated himself, that his magor beef with US is about US support for Saudi royal family and our presence (military and economical) on sacred soil of Arabian peninsula.
The sensible solution to elliminate such problem between us and terrorists would be to stop supporting all arab regimes (just in case some Jordanian terrorist will be unhappy with our support for Jordanian Hoshemit dinasty).
Therefore - we should not give a dollar to Palestinians.
The status of Palestinians nationally and in relationship to Israel is certainly a motivator of Islamist terrorists. Whether it is the primary or a lesser motivator may help determine the vigor with which we pursue a satisfactory resolution of it, but that it is a motivator in any case is why, in combination with humanitarian concerns, we are discussing it as a matter of United States foreign policy.
I think it is not productive to asses blame against Israel or the Palestinian people. Making Israel a pariah for the wrongs they have committed will give them nothing to lose if they choose to drop all pretenses of civility. This has already been the case for the Palestinians several times in the past. More to the point, this is an impossible situation in which to place moral weight on the actions of each player. The whole mess is dirty and chaotic. Choosing the comfort of black and white convictions is the root problem in the parties we are choosing to shun. We have to recognize that this issue, possibly more than any other in the world over the last fifty years, is steeped in grey, grey, grey. As a moderate party we must have the strength to ford these muddy waters and recognize that the only clear truth in the whole affair is that it must end. For the Palestinians. For Israel. For America.
Joe, the two major parties push enough BS, we don't need it here. The issue is not "gray, gray, gray" as you insist.
"People often call the Israeli-Palestinian issue “complicated.” It is not.
The central problem is quite straight forward: a little over fifty years ago 3/4 of an entire population was expelled from its land to make way for an ethnically discriminatory state. And this process is still going on. Palestinians are being continuously and violently dispossessed because of one original sin: inhabiting land that others wanted—exclusively."
-How Can Peace Be Achieved Between Israelis and Palestinians? Alison Weir
I wrote in a previous post "This problem would be over if the U.S. expected Israel to abide by international law." If you don't think Israel should not be held to the standards of international law and basic human rights, then you should tell us why because American lives are put at risk over this. If you don't understand something about the conflict, then say so. Don't try to sell us this "muddy waters" nonsense, we get enough of that from the Democrats and Republicans.
The Middle East problem is very similar to our own political problems at home. Special interests keep the cycle going. Why would the Palestinians agree to peace when they receive millions of dollars from abroad? Why would the Israelis agree to peace when they get millions of dollars from abroad? The fact is that both sides are guilty of terrorism and neither side is deserving of our support. If we, and the world, stop supporting the status quo, then things will have to change. Neither side is really our friend, they just act that way to get the free handout. We should treat both Israel and the Palestinian territories the way we treat Cuba, no relations until they act like responsible adults (this is not to say our policy towards Cuba is correct).
I must respond to the misinformation being spewed by representativepress: if Israel is the PRIMARY reason for terorism please stop ranting and answer my question, why muslim terrorists are targeting England, Canada, Indonesia, etal. They have nothing to do with Israel. Also as a point of information the Palestinians were never expelled from Israel, they left on the advice of the Grand Mufti of Egypt who was going to destroy Israel with the help of his Nazi officer corps.
"Branding one side as terrorists is not useful as both sides have committed atrocities."
That's disingenuous. There's a vast differece between individual acts of violence and a consciously adopted institututional policy that advocates indiscrimnate attacks on civilian targets.
"The status of Palestinians nationally and in relationship to Israel is certainly a motivator of Islamist terrorists. "
So are:
- Books crtical of Islam
- Films about abuse of Muslim women
- Wearing short pants
- Cartoons about Mohamed, etc
Where does it end?
Project for a New American Century (PNAC) is the real reason that there are Islamic terrorists. The radical Islams are fed-up with American interests being imposed upon the Middle East in the form of O.I.L.> Oil, Israel, and Logistical permanent American military bases in the MidEast
I wish it were so simple, I do. I also wish that the "BS" of the two major parties talked in terms of grey areas.
Unfortunately it's not and, far less to the point, they do not.
I offer as an illustration that the crime of moving 3/4 of a population off their land that you mentioned was the result of a war brought on by Palestinian and Arab leaders refusing a peaceful partition of the land proposed by the UN in 1948. They did so presuming they could crush the infant Jewish state. They miscalculated and lost, and millions were made refugees in countries that had agreed to carve up their own.
Also Mr. E Pluribus Frylock's simplification that terrorism marks the Palestinians as the villain is woefully under-informed. Ariel Sharon himself belonged to a special Israeli military unit whose purpose was to terrorize the Palestinian populace by indiscriminately bombing their houses and mosques.
I could continue, but I believe my point is clear.
I understand that it is much easier to pick a victim-hero and cheer them on than to recognize that both have bloodied their hands in the sorts of acts mankind can only hope to forget. But they have. The only way to move forward is to declare the past in the past, encourage Israelis and Palestinians to agree likewise and move on as though it were all forgotten so that someday it may be forgiven.
Jim, I think your suggestion is an interesting flip-side of the treat-them-equally coin I'm using. As I said before, I'd be afraid that no support (i.e. money) would remove any incentive for either side to plunge into an ugly and un-winnable war that could likely spill over the world. However if it doesn't seem to be slowing or stopping that anyway, then there would be little reason not to keep that money to ourselves for our own uses.
I hope you won’t be offended, but I suggest your idea as the stick to balance the continued assistance I hope would help to keep the situation civil. A clear ultimatum issued to both sides that all assistance will end should fighting start or talks breakdown.
Joe, there's a vast difference between unintended civilian casualties in a military operation and the deliberate premeditated murder of civilians. Hamas & Co attempt to characterize ANY military action by the Israel as terrorism so they excuse taking revenge on civilians.
By the way, I did not identify Palestineans as terrorists at any time. The word I used was Islamist.
The specific IDF campaign I was referring to did not suffer /unintentional/ civilian deaths. That was one of its objectives.
I do agree that, not only Hamas but, most of the sympathetic Arab and Muslim world characterizes actions of Israel’s in terms of terrorism that don’t use the “asymmetric warfare” we’ve come to equate with that term. I do think it’s somewhat meaningful to point out that, while Israel no longer seems to engage in deliberate attacks against civilians, a major tactic of their occupation has been “shows of force” meant to intimidate (i.e. terrorize) the Palestinian populace. These often create precarious situations where the likelihood of civilian death is significantly higher. While certainly not terrorism of the horrific order employed by suicide bombers, it is a form of mass reckless endangerment that achieves many of the same ends and that I could imagine calling “terrorism” myself were it happening in the streets of my town.
My statement was that you attributed terrorism only to the Palestinians, not that you had implicated all Palestinians as terrorists. So I would be incorrect if you believed Israel to involve itself in terrorism. In any case, I do not mean to put words you wouldn't say into your mouth.
Joe,
You gave us a Zionist depiction of what happened which is no more honest than the fraudulent Zionist slogan “A land without people for a people without land” which pushed the lie that there were no people in Palestine. Zionism were born in a time when almost unbelievable racism was routinely excused.
Here are the facts. The dominant Zionist agenda envisioned by Theodor Herzl, the father of Zionism was that European Jews were to move into Palestine and the native population, with the exception of the very small Jewish minority living there, were to be pushed off their land.
Even before the 20th century, some Jews saw warning signs that the Jews moving into Palestine were not going to respect the non-Jewish inhabitants. Ahad Aham, a Jewish critic of Zionist supremacy, complained in 1891 that "they treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause, and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination."
In 1898, Leo Motzkin reported to the Second Zionist Congress that in Palestine "one must admit that the density of the population does not give the visitor much cause for cheer. In whole stretches throughout the land one constantly comes across large Arab villages, and it is an established fact that the most fertile areas of our country are occupied by Arabs…"
"Our country," as Motzkin called it, actually consisted of an almost entirely non-Jewish population, 95 percent were not Jews, they were Muslims and Christians. Yet Herzl plotted massive Jewish immigration "based on assured supremacy" and early on he attempted to gain the the power to remove Palestinians who were not Jews. In 1901, Herzl went to Constatinople to try to get a charter from the Ottomans that would have given Jews the right to deport the native population.
Zionists knew "a land without people" was a lie. In 1905, Israel Zangwel, a British Jew who coined this propaganda phrase, argued that Zionists “must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population.” Another Zionist leader wrote, “Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country.” and “There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries—all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left.”
In 1938 Ben-Gurion said to other Zionists, “after we become a strong force, as the result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine.” He wrote to his son, "A partial Jewish state is not the end, but only the beginning ... I am certain that we will not be prevented from settling in the other parts of the country, either by mutual agreement with our Arab neighbors or by some other means...[If the Arabs refuse] we shall have to speak to them in a different language. But we shall only have another language if we have a state."
In Nov 1947, the UN made a recommendation for partition of Palestine, due in large part to Zionist pressures. Zionists privately plotted massive ethnic cleansing and they used the announcement of the recommendation as a way to carry out their plans. The recommendation was made by the UN General Assembly to divide Palestine up into 7 pieces, 3 pieces for a "Jewish state", 3 pieces for a "Arab state" and 1 piece for an international zone. General Assembly recommendations have no force, they are only recommendations. The majority of the people living in Palestine, over 67% percent, did not want their land chopped up into 7 pieces and it was their democratic right to turn down the recommendation. Less than 33% of the population had no right to insist that the recommendation was binding. What American would say that a UN recommendation forces over 67% of the people to give up their rights? The UN partition proposal was grotesquely unfair to the Arabs because Jews, who only owned only 5.4 % of the land, were to be given 55% of the land.
In practice, Zionists did not accept the UN Partition Plan. Zionists seized areas beyond the proposed Jewish State and did not recognize the International Zone. Using force and terrorism months before May 1948, Jews seized land beyond the UN proposed borders. The UN Plan was used as a pretense for taking over most of Palestine.
NOTE: This is a critical fact often omitted when the history is presented and this leads to a very distorted view of what happened in 1948. The misleading story often told is that "Jews declared Israel and then they were attacked." The fact is, from November 1947 to May 1948, the Zionists were already on the offensive and had already attacked Arabs. In the months before Israel was declared, the Zionists had driven 300,000 non-Jews off their land. In the months before Israel was declared, the Zionists had seized land beyond the proposed Jewish State and ignored the proposed international zone.
"The Zionists were by far the more powerful and better organized force, and by May 1948, when the state of Israel was formally established, about 300,000 Palestinians already had been expelled from their homes or had fled the fighting, and the Zionists controlled a region well beyond the area of the original Jewish state that had been proposed by the UN. Now it's then that Israel was attacked by its neighbors - in May 1948; it's then, after the Zionists had taken control of this much larger part of the region and hundreds of thousands of civilians had been forced out, not before."
The May 1948 unilateral declaration of "Israel" was made by Zionists who were less than 33% of the population and who were imposing their will on over 67%. After the creation of the state in 1948, Menachem Begin made clear how serious the “Jews accepting the UN partition” was in reality, “The partition of the Homeland is illegal . It will never be recognized. The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever."
The Zionists knew there would be a reaction to their May 1948 unilateral declaration declaring "Israel" and they made plans, for example Plan D, to use it to carry out even more ethnic cleansing. The ethnic cleansing continued after May 1948, "thousands died in massacres, battles, and, finally, hardship from the brutal exodus of an entire population fleeing for its life—children dying along the roadsides." After May 1948, 400,000 to 600,000 more was added to the 300,000 driven from their homes.
Thousands of non-Jews who didn't leave yet still had their homes and land stolen! In the first 8 years, the Jewish State took away a staggering 50% of all the land owned by Palestinians remaining in Israel. The shocking fact is some 39,000 Palestinians who never left were robbed anyway! "Israel seized property and land from some 39,000 Palestinians who escaped expulsion and remained in Israel. It was never retuned, and these individuals never received compensation although they are citizens of Israel." - See endnote 67 of The Palestinians: In Search of a Just Peace by Cheryl A. Rubenberg
Time to let the Europeans and other Countries take charge of this lets focus on us for while.
By the way are we still spending millions of dollars in foreign aid with Israel, they dont seem like a developing country to me? This subject is up there with abortion as a no starter and a special interest diversion.
RepresentativePress, your depiction of history, however accurate or not, is merely an illustration of the horrors of the Palestinian people's past and highlights sources of the frustration they feel today. It does not legitimize the atrocities committed by people in the name of whatever you would like to call their movement.
As I have repeatedly tried to bring out in this discussion, the terrorist strikes for this cause against Israel can be (and has been cited in this thread to be) just as easily argued as the horrors that might legitimize Israel's harshest policies and actions today.
The style of argument you espouse is the core form of rhetoric that feeds the continuing downward spiral in which the region has found itself. It does not lead to progress, because neither extreme can realize their deepest desire for an "original Palestine" or a "greater Israel", because neither Israel nor the Palestinians are about to pack up and leave. All it can provide is rousing speeches by imams and generals who rally their people to their cause.
I will not be indulging this line of discussion with you further. My appeals that we must admit that righteousness is not a metric we should concern ourselves with, because it is not a factor that will lead to peace, have been met with a well-written adult's equivalent of "uh-uh". If you can indicate a way that peace can be achieved while giving one side the benefit of acknowledging the especially victimized status they have endured, then perhaps a discussion can continue as to how that policy might take form. Otherwise I'm simply allowing myself to be baited by a viewpoint extreme enough to preclude a rational discussion.
Frank, you're clearly right about this issue's divisiveness.
I also think you're probably right that this issue is a non-starter with the American public, and probably won't warrant an ad by our candidate. However I don't think we have the luxury of not formulating a position, because, unlike abortion which can be left to the courts and then to the states, all foreign policy is the purview of the federal government and more specifically of the executive branch we would hope to occupy. It will be an issue that our candidate would have to face in office, and so we need to set some guidelines to assist them.
I do think there's merit to a policy that would hand-over the primary task of mediating and, to the original point of this discussion, deciding what forms of assistance are appropriate to Europe, the U.N. or some other international player. If this proves an impossible issue on which to reach a consensus among ourselves, do others here think that perhaps that should be our platform?
Europe and a guilt ridden England and America made the opportunity for the Zionists to conquer a helpless people after WWII.
Of course the same kind of rapine, theft and murder was conducted by so many peoples over all of history and is no better or worse then the horrific acts of Europeans in the Americas, or Africa or the pillage and murder of the Mongols or the Koreans who murdered the entire population of Japan and then pretended until today that they weren't Koreans at all but "Japanese".
Murder, Theft and Rape the stuff the nations of the world are made of.
In our modern age when we delude ourselves into thinking none of the black behaivor of human kind could happen we have a toothless UN to protect us from ourselves.
At least lets stop sending our wealth to Israel. Americans are still hungry, children live in poverty and our healthcare system is a mess.
Israel is here, its atomic weapons give it all the military might it needs. We can wish it well and say so long.
And by the way we haven't forgotten those US seaman murdered by an Israeli military gone amuck.
Let me make it very clear.
Unity08 should seek the interests of the US formost in its foreign policy.
Next it should ppromote the interests of North America.
Promote peace above all and not shed an ounce of blood or treasure for any ideology (including Bush's "democracy to the world").
We must stop being policeman to the world and the lender of last resort as long as we and our immediate neighborhood are not in the best standard of living we can deliever.
No more money and military for Europe, Israel, Africa, Taiwan or Japan.
Let us pour any aid we can spare into North America (primarily Mexico, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Belize and Panama) to raise the standard of living to that close to the US and Canada. Thus creating a big marketplace and eliminating the source of illegal immigration.
do any of you speak from real time experience? are you just referencing to convey your point?
we are the government but who are we to critcize when we haven't been there and done that?
Joe,
You resort to the tired underhanded tactic of writing something like "It does not legitimize the atrocities." I never said that anything legitimized atrocities. and I never inferred that anything legitimized atrocities.
First you post misinformation and now you are using the underhanded tactic of trying to paint me as someone who "legitimizes the atrocities." Must we Americans be constantly subjected to these manipulative games by those seeking to entrap us into continuing these horribly unjust policies?
My "style of argument" was crystal clear: stop telling lies about the situation. You tried to get away with telling us that the situation is "grey, grey, grey." It is not. My "style of argument" was to list the facts that make it clear that an aggressor has imposed tremendous wrongs on people because they are not the favored religion.
You couldn't be bothered to learn what the history actually is? Don't further mischaracterize what the situation is. I looked over what I posted and the links I posted. I provided a good deal of information, enough information that you should not be mischaracterizing what I am saying and what the situation is.
A majority of the American people support a Palestinian state. So first thing that should be done is to reword the description of this topic. The American people have a right to know what the situation is. This is something that Unity08 could accomplish. To sit back and allow the current deceptions to harm the American people is outrageous. No underhanded tactic can be allowed to stop us from spreading the truth and ending this situation. No dirty attempt to sabotage the discussion should be allowed to succeed, this issue is too important.
"The facts are, for 35 years, there has been a harsh, brutal, military operation. There has not been a political settlement. The reason that there has not been a political settlement is the United States, unilaterally, has blocked it for 25 years."
"There is a political settlement that has been supported by virtually the entire world, including the Arab states, the PLO, Europe, Eastern Europe, Canada and was also supported by the majority of the American people"
"For 25 years, the United States has blocked the political settlement, which is supported by the majority of the American population and by the entire world, except for Israel."
The U.S. government keeps vetoing a political settlement and it keeps violating the Geneva convention. This issue can be solved, this must be an issue. We can't let people manipulate us in these forums to keep the lies going. Since most people agree with a political settlement, this should be part of our platform.
Promote peace above all and not shed an ounce of blood or treasure for any ideology (including Bush's "democracy to the world - through Premptive Wars").
We must stop being policeman to the world and the lender of last resort as long as we and our immediate neighborhood are not in the best standard of living we can deliver.
No more money and military for Europe, Israel, Africa, Taiwan or Japan.
Will this party recognize the Palestinian people as a nation? I think not. They were never a country, only a territory of Britian, (the palestinian MANDATE). So, should we continue to fund them, now as they are controlled by Hamas, a terrorist organizaion.
I began researching this topic in depth about 8 months ago. I went through the United Nations web site and painstakingly saved more than 1,000 documents and reports concerning the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I've also collected many maps from before and after Israel's creation and every major armed conflict between Israel and neighboring Arab countries.
I think these documents are key to developing an informed position on this issue. We need a document Library.
If there were ever a place to upload these documents onto this site, or if I could upload them to a site administrator I would be glad to. The documents are in order alpha-numerically, and, unfortunately, not by date. I'm also in the process of printing and arranging into binders all of these documents.
Matt Callaway
All sunshine and no rain make a desert.
Matt Callaway can you describe what you conclude from your research?
Being that there are more than 1000 documents and over 15,000 pages, I haven't had the chance to read through everything yet. Please do not take my opinions as fully developed. There is much more to study, which is why I'd like to get these documents online and accessible to everyone.
From what I have read though, I tend to come to the defense of the Palestinians and see them far more as the victim and Israel as the aggressor. Israel's armed forces tend to keep the Palestinians powerless, and severely limit their mobility.
The two people are locked in a conflict where each side is afraid to relent for fear that the other would vanquish them. Israelis seem to be more legitimate because their nation is established and orderly, whereas the Palestinians have been unable to build any stable, self-sustaining institutions of their own.
Israeli's armed forces are extremely powerful, and do not allow the Palestinians to establish a legitimate military. Some Palestinians are then left so desperate that they are willing to sacrifice their lives to terrorize the Israeli public in the same way that Israel's armed forces terrorize the Palestinian public.
To tell you the truth, Israel was and continues to be the instigator, and does not live up to its UN commitments. That does in no way excuse Palestinian violence on Israeli citizens. In the same token, Israeli violence against Palestinians is also not excused.
If I were in charge of relations with Israel I would take a much harsher and tougher stand than the US has traditionally.
The larger conflict of Israel/Arab World is far more balanced, however. Israel has captured territory from Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt through war. Israel continues to hold Lebanese and Syrian territory, which I think we can all agree would be unacceptable to our country if another nation refused to relinquish American territory. I see it as a huge hurdle to overcome.
Matt Callaway
P.S. - It may run against what you've heard, but www.aljazeera.net/english is actually the most unbiased news source I've ever read. Their reporting is nearly void of opinion. It's a good way to keep up to date on the Arab world with stories that never get any play in the US, for obvious reasons. Another source for better insight is "From Beirut To Jerusalem" by Thomas L. Friedman (NY Times Editorialist).
All sunshine and no rain make a desert.
Hi Matt,
I agree with a majority of what you’ve wrote. The struggle is one that both sides have blood on their hands. However, I seem to be far more Pro-Israeli than you are.
A couple of years ago I had the opportunity of serving with Magen David Adom in Israel as a medical responder. It was an eye opening experience to say the least. I was lucky that I never had to witness any of the suicide bombings and the worse cases that I had to respond to was heart attacks from the elderly. However, I was given something invaluable, and that was an Israeli perspective to the matter. The one thing that I’ve learned from the experience is that Israel has had to change rapidly and undertake world wide scrutiny for its actions. Often they are very justified and carry out their military actions in the most noble of manners. Israeli troops are forbidden from attacking civilians, and destroying Palestinian property without justified cause. If civilians are wounded in the field, they are offered full medical coverage in Israel and often evacuated BEFORE wounded Israeli troops. Israel has banned the use of torture of any means of interrogation in 1999. One of the Only western style nations to adopt such a strong policy (mostly due to outside pressure and the scrutiny that it constantly has to live up to every time they use their sword rather than their pen).
Israel’s control of Lebanese and Syrian territory is for the protection of the Israeli State. Often before their occupation of the Golan Heights, Syrian artillery would shell Israeli cities and Hezbollah rockets would be aimed toward civilian targets. Now that the Israeli’s hold the heights hostilities haven’t started up again with Syria (possibly because Israel holds the ability to shell Damascus to the ground if they threatened Israel). Israel has been more than willing to negotiate for the land in return for their recognition as a state by Syria. In fact Israel has even allowed for Lebanon to have portions of the Golan Heights back in recent years.
Israel plays tough in the Middle East because they cannot afford to defeat. They have everything to lose and very little to gain from hostilities.
I hope you don’t misread my intentions for this post. I’m not condoning the state of Israel for everything that it does. I’m simply showing you perspective, and it’s up to you to draw your own opinion on the matter. I suggest you take a stab at Reading “A Case for Israel”, it may enforce my perspective in a more orderly fashion than I prescribed. I feel both states are caught in a violent “Tit for Tat” prisoner’s dilemma game. In order for peace to occur both sides need to recognize one another and they need to be more lenient when it comes to the “Tats” that may occur.
Chadley
Israel GAVE them the Gaza strip to start a nation. They tore down the greenhouses the Israelis had built there, and started firing rockets into Israel.
Until they renounce Hamas and begin acting like a nation instead of a terrorists state, the Palestians deserve economic sanctions.
http://journals.aol.com/kweinschen/Veritas/
Until there is another Sadat there will not be peace in the Mid East. It will be a holding pattern containment effort on our part until that Sadat figure pops up. The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity as Abba Eban use to say. That hasn't changed sad to say. And the Arabs and now Shiites never miss an opportunity to use the great Palestinian peoples and travails for their own power play ends.