That's what Mario Cuomo and Tom Kean have just published in the New York Daily News yesterday. They don't see anything amiss with not actually allowing Unity08's delegates to actually post on Unity08's website what they, themselves, may or may not think the crucial issues are, not only to themselves, but to the future safety and well-being of the country. They seem to think a better way to create a political platform - " from the people up" is to have Unity08 simply wait until the spring of 2024 and through the use of a series of "focus groups," develop what they think will be the issues "crucial" to the future safety and well-being of the country may be and allow Unity08 delegates only to vote on the options given to them. And, depending on how representative a representative sampling of the delegate votes is taken, arrive at a political platform from the people.
Whether this procedure will actually lead to a political platform from the people up, is anybody guess, but it has absolutely no chance of representing the political platform of the delegates of Unity08's.
That is the illusion Unity08 is trying to uphold, the illusion Mario Cuomo and Tom Kean have bought in to, and, fortunately, the lie most people see through before they join Unity08.
ex animo
davidfarrar
When UNITY08 and its Delegates bring home the bacon - you'll do a postig to say its inedible !!
pete
All Unity08 is saying to its members is come join us. We will tell you what to believe in and when to believe in it.
Now, how is that any different than the other two political parties?
Unity08 is nothing but a simple IRS 527 private political corporation trying to cash in on the voters' political frustration. Which, in itself, I have nothing against. But it is not going to be accomplished with the voice of the people. It will not be following a political platform from the people. In fact, it will have nothing whatsoever to do with the people. So how can it ever be transparent or accountable?
ex animo
davidfarrar
Davey -- I know why you keep hanging around - you want to be close enough to jump on the band wagon when we make it hasppen .
pete(popo)evans
I don't know about you but I never signed a contract saying I was going to vote a certain way. I believe I am like most, I reserve the right to make my final decision up until I walk into the voting booth.
Phil
Been to the Unity08 Delegate wiki lately? Join today!http://unity-usa.org
Lets uncorrupt our government!
We all assume we will be making the final decisions. But that's not what is being promised here with Unity08. As an example: if the list of crucial issues were created here, or even on the WIKI, and vetted down by majority vote of the participants of the Shoutbox to a manageable number, which would then be presented to the Unity08 delegate body during their online convention; I would have no problem with that. But that's not what is going to happen. "Focus groups", whoever, or whatever that means, will have already decided what crucial issues we delegates will get to choose from. It won't be a product of our efforts...it won't be "from the people", Unity08 will not be a peoples' party. It will all be a lie. It will be no different than any of the other political parties, where political elites make decisions in the name of their own members by the use of surveys and sample polling and countless other tricks, all in an effort to avoid publishing what their own members are actually saying.
Unity08 was supposed to be different, but it is being lead in the same manner as the other two political parties. I am sure you are like me, you want to make sure when Unity08 speaks, its the actual voice of the delegate body of Unity08, anything else is nothing but a fraud, a lie.
And people can see this. They very quickly realize their voices aren't being heard. Their vote will not actually be counted. That's why they are not joining up in the numbers anticipated. You don't have to believe me. All you have to do is look at the numbers. Only when their voices will actually be heard and counted will they join up and participate in the numbes that will actually stand a chance of changing things, not before. There are no short cuts. It's as simple as that. Watch the numbers!
ex animo
davidfarrar
I am going to withhold judgement until that time. To do otherwise will merely get me sidetracked. For instance, I am anxious for the next survey and hope that people responded to their emails with questions that concerned them. Don't you think the way in which survey questions were asked of the delegates is a positive approach? Patience for the Invisible Hand of the American Agenda to work its magic.
Phil
Been to the Unity08 Delegate wiki lately? Join today!http://unity-usa.org
Lets uncorrupt our government!
Give it up David - you are getting so damn obvious in your efforts to turn people away - you are having the opposite affect ..
Who do you work for for - I don't mind telling you who supports my 40/50 hours a week here and on my blog for UNITY08 .. My Social Security and hopefully sale of my Little Golf book on the web www.golfforseniors.com (spend $10.00 and download it) and my Golf Board Game www.playboardgolf.com
Now I've shown you mine - how's about you show me yours ??!!
Oh and by the way - I know how much you detest Pete's Plan : click on
www.anerica-21stcentury.com you'll go bonkers when you read todays posting.
pete(popop)evans
It doesn't matter what my motives are. Whether my motives are constructive or destructive will pretty much depend on your own point of view. If it makes you feel any better, you can take my posts pretty much as I have taken yours, as that of a ranting, raving lunatic.
In the end, the only thing that matters is the fact that Unity08 is not presently generating the number of delegates it needs to generate in order to become politically viable in the coming election. The value of my suggestions is that it at least they address this point. People are not joining Unity08 in the numbers required because they do not easily and clearly see their voice being heard or their vote being counted.
I further suggest, if Unity08's officials want greater numbers of people to join their group, their involvement in the development of Unity08 political agenda should be far more direct, open and verifiable, something they have as yet failed to do even with their last survey.
Lastly, I have pointed out that until people know their voices will be heard and counted by Unity08, politically significant numbers of people will not be joining Unity08 in time for the 2024 elections. It's as simple as that.
Now, Peter, you can try an attack me anyway you feel necessary, but as they say, unless it changes the numbers, it's just the rantings of one raving lunatic to another.
ex animo
davidfarrar
I don't attack you - I just make it clear to newbees - that your agenda is not the same as most of us ..
Peter
As long as they are advertised as "surveys" and not political platforms - "from the people up".
But just like this present propaganda piece from Cuomo and Tom Kean, Unity08 is trying to sell these surveys as somehow stemming from the people. Under these circumstances, the true function of Unity08's delegates can be seen for what it really is, a cloak of authority to help hide the fact that this is not a political agenda "from the people up", but from a small cadre of party elites, masquarding as being "from the people up", making it a commodity to be sold out to the moneyed interests of the party when the time comes.
The idea of a party leadership cloaking their own political agenda as if it was the true expression of its membership is not new. Indeed, it is the very way the political leadership of the other two major political parties have been able to sell out their own party ideals to their moneyed interests in the first place.
And it is for this reason, Phil, even if you should desire to wait and see if you might agree with their political positions, whatever they may be, you must object to this process NOW! If this sellout is not objected to now, the seeds of Unity08's own destruction will be laid down before it is even created. Unity08 will not be any different than the other two major political parties, no matter how it tries to disguise itself with silly, bipartisan tickets. Its internal structure will be controlled by the moneyed interests of the party and not by the delegate body itself.
This is why people are not joining Unity08 in the numbers they should be joining, Phil. They simply don't trust the leadership of Unity08. They can't easily see where Unity08 is any different than the other two major political parties, and until they do, they are not going to join.
The only political platform Unity08 can honestly project, under any circumstances, is the one it arrives at through an accurate, transparent democratic vote of its delegate body, anything else, no matter what it may be called, is a lie to Unity08's one, true political ideal -- the ideal of its delegates' voice being the one true voice of Unity08 -- "from the people up".
ex animo
davidfarrar
I suggest that you are the only person that sees the home page of the website change and think it is U08 trying to tell the world what the delegates believe. People like myself believe that random changing of the home page content is a way to let people know that things are wide open. I get the opposite impression as you. My experience with websites tells me that if that page stays static (unchanging), the people that don't like that particular face on that particular day, will not stay if it is the same next time. What you interpret to be a U08 control issue, I interpret as a method to be inclusive. A way to indicate that activity is going on within.
Phil
Been to the Unity08 Delegate wiki lately? Join today!http://unity-usa.org
Lets uncorrupt our government!
I am not sure what you are implying. I am taking about Mario Cuomo and Tom Kean, published piece in the Opinion-Editorial in the New York Daily News on September 30, 2024. It is these two nuts who think the "survey" Unity08 just pulled off somehow represents a political platform created by Unity08, from the people up.
ex animo
davidfarrar
You have been around the Shoutbox community long enough to feel the impact of the thoughts of specific internet demographics. Various posts in the Shoutbox raise this issue but, it is largely ignored. We would be foolish to think that we alone represent the views of the entire centrist voting block. We need these people but, they will not be heard here. Although we have taken it upon ourselves to be the voice for our neighbors that are not here, we must not make the mistake to think that we alone are a well-rounded and authoritative voice for what they want. I suggest you go to the Pew Internet Research site to get a better feel for the demographics of the people that are here. Compare that to the vastly larger portion of the population whose inerests are not being voiced here. That disparity should give you an idea of the problem that confronts us.
We have a duty to seek a voice here that also represents the concerns of those people. If we don't, we risk losing our appeal and impact that we could make on the 08 election. How can we combine the results of surveys, ideas about platform, and still represent the views of those that are not here? When people are defiant and insist that we are the voters, isn't that a little bit pretentious? While our views are important, if we don't take individual responsibility to temper individual positions with the general thrust behind the overall goals of Unity08, we will not be representative of the larger voice of people that are not here. This group here must seek an accomodation from the very start.
As U08 online delegates we have an obligation to perform a civic duty here that is so often missing from the way people are accustomed to interacting in politics. We must place our own self-interests on the back burner and think in terms of what is best for everyone. If we don't, this will not work. However, we are blessed with our own unique experiences that can help us shape a concensus that is unifying. Every attempt we make to exceed our authority, we invite frustration.
This presents a tricky dilemmna. How can we speak for the vast majority of our neighbors when agreement among the few now is difficult? I find this internet approach to forming a concensus particularly challenging when I express my own views on the Shoutbox. It is too easy to be tempted to believe my own position is the best simply because my experience is biased.
When push comes to shove, I am grateful for an American Agenda that permits active debate and discussion while at the same time is not so loosely structured to allow the few to enforce its will upon the many. I am grateful for the strategy that understands such a real pitfall. I have no illusions about the final role this forum and the wiki will play in shaping the American Agenda. I think it will all come together in a manner that no one can really know right now. We can predict and lobby a certain way but, it will come out as it should. A successful American Agenda includes a guiding Invisible Hand that is unencumbered by individual dogma.
Phil
Been to the Unity08 Delegate wiki lately? Join today!http://unity-usa.org
Lets uncorrupt our government!
...is something I, fortunately, know nothing about. And, although, I am only too aware of many, many individuals who would offer their invisible hands to help our democratic process arrive at results they believe should be arrived at; I am not aware of any true democratic process ever needing an invisible hand to achieve its true results.
In any case, you argument is specious and irrelevant. It is not important why Unity08 officials believe they need to add their invisible hand to help their delegates arrive at a political agenda. It only matters what people believe about the invisible hand of Unity08 officials at work before they make their decision to join Unity08. And from the numbers I am looking at, people don't like it. And until people are convinced their voices will be heard and counted at Unity08, nothing will change.
ex animo
davidfarrar
It is not people that control and wield the Invisible Hand. There is no conspiracy, the Invisible Hand is a power responsible only to itself. To ignore its role is to misunderstand the process.
Phil
Been to the Unity08 Delegate wiki lately? Join today!http://unity-usa.org
Lets uncorrupt our government!
On this web site, everybody has the opportunity to check the Bio of those offering comments - the wise things to do if you disagree with a comment from someone on a major issue IS CHECK THEIR BIO, then re-evaluate their coments througout the Shoutbox - do they reflect the knowledge and experience the bio contains .. ie CONSIDER THE SOURCE OF THE INFORMATION OR COMMENTS before you make judgements ..
pete(popo)evans
It seems to me, most peole joining Unity08 are what as known as watchers and waiters. I think I could count the members that add to the discussions on both hands. Most are waiting to see if this group is populated with wackos and loons. As for the "invisible hand" I have a tendency to lean to the skeptical. I have said it before and I will say it again, one way communication does not work and just causes the masses to get their panties in a knot. I understand David's outbursts. Frustration usually leads to paranoia. The silence from the "hand" is deafening. There may be good reasons for it but "time and tide waits for no man".
there can be no argument with stumpy's assertion that for the most part it is the same people who post on a regular basis. but i think there are many who just read the posts and don't respond.
As I have already stated a thousand times, the Invisible Hand is a power unto its own and is not controlled by any one person or group. Frustration and paranoia have no impact. Frustration is natural, paranoia is not.
Phil
Been to the Unity08 Delegate wiki lately? Join today!http://unity-usa.org
Lets uncorrupt our government!
Time is running out. Unity08 hasn't nearly enough delegates to be politically effective. People know when their voices are listened to and when whether or not their votes is being counted accurately.
There is nothing in Unity08 program that assures them that either their voices will be heard or their vote will be honestly counted. Until this changes, as you say...time and tide waits for no one.
ex animo
davidfarrar
Davey me boy, I would have been disappointed if you had missed this opportunity to sow your usual seeds of doubt .. I guess when we elect the next President - your initial comment will be " we picked the wrong people - it'll never work out" !!
Davey, the fact is of course - we may not succeed, but it damn sure wont be by lack of effort on our part - or anything you did to help or hinder ..
Please, don't forget - Hold Your Breath until I tell you its OK the breathe !!
popo