Hi im randall.
Ok, let me start of saying that i am not one bit racist.
But im not an idiot.
In our schools we are taught at a young age races should be treated the same, white is the same as black and visa versa. Yet in tests,scholarships, even job applications there is an area reserved for a separate color or race or ethnicity. What is that saying? We need to know how to treat you?... scholarships for African Americans, Natives, Hispanic. Now don't get me wrong i like the fact that people are getting a chance to go to college but the scholarships reserved for races is just saying your not the same as me your different and being treated differently. Even when its a so-called benefit. I.e. going to school, getting a better job. Its not a benefit because its just promoting a secondry form of racism. And even tough you gain an opportunity you lose out on equal rights that are fore fathers fought to gain. I dont know its just something i noticed.
I'm in total agreement with you. Racism has no place in our society in any form wheather it be hiring quotas or school placement.
Before I explain why I disagree consider this statistic:
Percentage of U.S. population that is African-American 12%
Percentage of adults in state prison who are African-American 46%
source: http://www.prisonpolicy.org/prisonindex/prisoners.html
Now here's where claims of being "not racist" are really tested.
People against affirmative action are quick to say things such as it isn't fair. BUT, if you are truly "not racist" can you look at these statistics and say that everyone of all races has an equal chance at success. The fact is that impovrished communities typically yield higher rates of crime and less people attaining college degrees. The only way to balance out this unfortunate fact is to offer minority groups this affirmative action, which in reality is actually making the playing field equal when you consider the correlation between poverty and things like crime.
Yes the statistics are showing that alot of African Americans are being placed into prisons. But it doesn't mean they didn't have a choice to commit there crimes or the choice to make there lives better. I feel alot of African Americans are following the "culture" Gangs are cool, guns show your a man. That sort of thing, but the fact remains we shouldn't be saying well your black so you have a lesser chance of making something out of your self. If you try hard enough anyone can obtain anything, we would should say well uh lets see your white so lets not help you because your race is better off right now, you have more options. It should be about who needs it not what color needs it more.
Sorry if it sounds rude or anything. Cant really show sarcasm through the internet.
I respect your opinion and side of the matter, and i appreciate that you took the time to write back...
The real reason so many black people are in jail is that most grew up being told that they were victims of a racist America, that they couldn't beat the system, that they were special and entitled, that "the man" is out to get them, etc, etc. It's not hard to take that kind of input and figure out that criminal behavior is the only way to get ahead. Controversial statement, but it's true. Done in by the very people that claim to be trying to save them. There was a show quite a long time ago where inner city black men were interviewed and they said there was no point in getting a job, that they deserved more than minimum wage (despite not having proven so), that everything was stacked against them, that they couldn't win. Then they interviewed black immigrants and they had a totally opposite view, that jobs were easy to find, that getting raises were easy, that America was the least racist country in existence and that getting ahead was purely a matter of working for it.
That's the kind of thing that happens when you convince people they are victims. Anger, hostility, hopelessness, destructive behavior, not because of what is, but because of what they think is. And you can do it to anyone, it's not a black issue at all.
If there is "affirmative action", it should be to help poor people who want a leg up, not just one minority or another. Black, hispanic, asian, etc, should be completely banned from government vocabulary and paper work. It should be forbidden to use it as any criteria for anything. Otherwise, racism can never disappear.
A Democrat seeks complex solution to simple problems
A Republican seeks simple solutions to complex problems
A reasonable person seeks simple solutions for solvable problems
"But it doesn't mean they didn't have a choice to commit there crimes or the choice to make there lives better."
The problem with that statement is that it ignores the statistical link between poverty and crime. When you live in poverty, and possibly work several jobs, you may not have the means to focus as much of your energy on studies as you would like. When the most pressing issue you face is mere survival in a crimeridden and impovrished community, education tends to sink on the priority list. Now when you examine the reason that the black population is in an economically disadvantaged situation today, the white majority is largely to blame. The practices of slavery, followed in its abolishion by sharecropping and the Jim Crow laws, left the black population economically crippled for generations to come. For the record I am white, but the clear link between poverty in African American communities today and the malignant practices of the white population in the past cannot be ignored.
As a side note to the "gang culture" comment, the link between poverty and the likelihood of success extends to more than just the black population. Other major minorities, who in the past were also wronged by the white majority, also bear witness to the impact of poverty on success. For instance, Native American poverty is more likely attributed to centuries of broken treaties, than gangland culture.
I apologize for the length of my reply.
True there was / is the mob, but there will alway be a crime syndicate of some kind.
But not every Italian was in the mob, and at one time they too were looked down upon in our society. The ones that did not go the way of the modsters still found a way to pull themseleves up in our society. It all a matter of choice.
If some one is hard working and truely needs a helping hand, I feel most people wouldn't have a problem lending a hand. I know I don't.
I not saying our system is perfect, and some good people who do need help do get left out. I say lets try to change the system so we can help those who truely do need it, no matter what their race is. The dregs of society (no matter their race) should be punished for the bad choices they make.
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I agree that the white majority is largely responsible for the current economic status of the black community. I would, however, attribute it to the "Great Society" more than slavery and racism. For 40+ years we have been telling black people they can't make it without our help. We have, in many cases, been paying them to stay down. Not so much now, but in the past we made having babies out of wedlock a lucrative proposition. Is it any suprise that it became a habit? If blacks are equal to whites, and I don't question they are, we should leave them alone and allow them to earn the respect they deserve.
I happen to agree with both of you. I know that doesn't sound possible but it is true. I do dislike a lot of affirmative action (like being black being worth more point that a perfect SAT score for getting into college) but not to understand how much harder it is for a poor person to move up in the world than it is for upper middle class to stay there displays a lack of understanding of sociology. My problem with affirmative action is that it focuses on race, rather than your income level growing up or the neighborhood that you grew up in. If the system is truly going to be fair it need to recognize that Blacks, Latinos, Native Americans and Whites all have trouble coming up out of poverty.
As for race, sure there are prejudices. I am not really sure how to combat this other than to for people of all races to commingle. Our schools don't really do that. At a public school you will surely see many people of different race, but that doesn't mean that you interact with them. Usually the clicks in schools go by race which in my mind only goes further to segregate. The only solution that I have ever heard I didn't much like though I think that it would work. I believe that it was on the show The West Wing. There was a black congressman or senator that suggested reinstating the draft. I would not personally want to spend any time in the military, but it would certainly help to ending segregation and racism in this country. I will tell you that the minority clubs and all black schools only further the problem.
I agree that the affirmative action should be based on income levels and not race. I understand that it's very very difficult to move up out of poverty, but to say that only minoritys are poor is a lack of understanding of the world. I know that the majority is most likely minoritys but if the affirmative action really looked at income and awarded money to those that need it to go to college then we would have a different world and things would be more equal but true equality comes from people realising that race is just a color or just a culture thing and that a person is not their color or race but who they are inside.
Of course, it would be foolish to say, "only minoritys are poor". However it would be, for lack of a better word, nieve to not acknowledge the relationship between race and things such as poverty and social mobility. Furthermore, the poverty that still exists among many minority groups is largely a result of centuries of discrimination, cruel economic practices, and broken promises by the white majority. This is again evident when examining things such as slavery, sharecropping, countless violated treaties, the Jim Crow laws, lack of civil rights, and inequal wages that litter United States history.
Retired but Active
If there was just SOME way to weed out the TRULY welfare dependent and shiftless people who remain that way BY CHOICE then affirmative actin might really work. But, when we ALL drive down the street EVERY DAY and see the hip hop drug dealing HOs and the people that get the free lunch to go to college or to trade school and THEN simply take their check and spend it on everything BUT advancing themselves it causes some of us to be very skeptical of ALL affirmative action programs.
I will admit that there have been many who have been helped by affirmative action programs but I also maintain that far MORE have simply abused the system as long as they can and THEN go on welfare to buy their crack. This is not an indictment of all minorities but certainly of those that we KNOW are abusing the people that pay the taxes to provide the benefits that they diss away! And it DOES happen a LOT regardless of whose feelings are hurt.
Like what I say about the health care system. That whole system also needs to be re-worked. It will not be easy, but the the less it should be and needs to be done
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The way I see it........
The only way we can move past racism is if we all agree that yes it has happened and still does happen, that way it out in the open. But we can not constantly hover around the subject or else it won't dissapear. It is kind of a damned if you do damned if you don't sitution.
As for affirmative action, it does have some positives, but it does seperate the masses. It should not matter "who" you are. If two people apply for college or a job, shouldn't the best qualified geat accepted or hired based on their skills alone. Sometimes I feel that with affirmative action the minority will get the chance to succeed simply because he is a minority, not because he/she is the best qualified.
If the minority is the best qualified, and needs somewhat of a helping hand to get going, I say give him/her the help he/she needs. But giving some one a distinct addvange simply because they are a minority hurts everyone in our society , even society itself.
Once again, I have no problem helping people who are willing to help themseleves. People must show that they are willing to do what it takes, or else it is hopeless. This does stems from my Buddhist beliefs
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------PROPS 4 BUDDHA------
"shouldn't the best qualified geat accepted or hired based on their skills alone?"
In a perfect world, perhaps. However, acknowledging that racism "has happened and still does happen" and not doing anything to try and stop it only allows hateful biggotry and discrimination to spread.
The problem is that this racism that still exists often makes employers want to shy away from people who come from a culture that is very different from their own. Things such a quotas in the workplace ensure that often the better candidate does get the job rather than being discriminaated against for being different.
When examining affirmative action in selection for colleges and scholarships, it is important to ask this question: How would a population that is already crippled by lack of opportunity and social mobility improve its situation by inherently getting statistically fewer students into college? Then, if job application was, purely, who is most qualified, how would this economically crippled population improve thier social mobility when they have fewer college graduates.
The problem with all the idealiastic theories being thrown around about not having affirmative action in things such as education and the workplace is that they didn't work during the 100 or so years after slavery was abolished that they were practiced. As a result, the black population was left with an economically disadvantaged situation, with no way out for more than just a few. As valid as it is to say in a perfect fantasy world that someone should not get a job simply because they are a minority, it is even more valid to say when examining the real world that someone should not be poor just because they are black.
I did say I do see the value of affirmative action, I truly do. But I do feel it also causes a bigger gap between people of different backgrounds then needed, for the simply fact that some people are going to feel that they were cheated because they did not get hired or accepted when a person of "race" does (I've never felt this way). It's a touchy subject. I'm not saying that as a whole we should not try our very best to elimanate it, but now matter what is done SADLY racism will probally never truly vanish.
I quote Marilyn Manson "Everybody is somebody elses ni**er, I know you are and so am I"
As a Buddhist and Trekkie I will also say I do hope that one day we can all learn to work and live togather for the common good of Humanity and life everywhere. Even in the deepest parts of space
(ha ha ha ha, sorry for the Star Trek humor)
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I am the best qualified for a job, but do not get employed because the employer must abide by his government apportioned racial quota? The basic priciples of economics are violated here. The employer must hire the BEST applicant to ensure his company has the BEST chance to be competitive. It is pattently un-american to do otherwise. We are all afforded the same basic opportunities in life. The fact that social engineering by the black community (let's be honest here, we all know we're talking black and white) promotes "gangsta" lifestyle as the way to be if you're a "real" black is to blame for their poor socio-economic standing. The responsibility for making succesful, productive Americans lies with the parent(s).
I came from a broken home, grew up on welfare and food stamps, shopped at the Salvation Army before it was "cool", went hungry, went without heat in the NY winter, and changed schools 9 times. I did not have "special" programs to pay for college, or guarantee my acceptance. I did not need any help in figuring out I didn't want my children to grow up as I did. I worked a full time day job, and went to school full time at night. I didnt have a fancy car with a loud stereo, I didn't have cool cloths. What I had was AMBITION and DRIVE.
You cannot appreciate that which you did not earn on merit.
But none the less Affirmative action does have a few pluses. I just feel too many people rely on them, instead of working to their fullest extent. Help should only be offered if you prove you are hard working and truly deserve a helping hand.
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Retired but Active
After many years teaching college in Management and Human Resource Management plus many more years actual practical experience in the "real" world I will admit that racisim does exist, still, in this country AND around the world. I am not at all optomistic that this will ever change enough to meet everyone's "idealistic" view of how things "should" be.
Having said that, I will also say that until the minority populations in this country recognize thier OWN shortcomings, there is even less hope. And, let's be honest. The PRIMARY minority we are talking about is Black. When we ALL see the vast amount of abouse of EVERY system ever devised to help this particular race improve their lot in live, we have a tendency to become very skeptical.
Even when Affirmative Action results in a significant number of blacks being admitted to college and give every opportunity to "catch up" academically, at least HALF of them either Flunk out or simply Drop out after the first year or less. This hurts everyone involved. It hurts other blacks by causing the majority to believe that ALL blacks are shiftless and lazy and dumb. We know this is not true, but we also know that, based on OBSERVABLE BEHAVIOR, much of it IS true. There have been Billions of dollars spent in an effort to help blacks advance in society. Everything from subsidized housing and food to preferences in hiring in jobs with a real future. We have OBSERVED the failure rates of all of this. And, when we see the influence that such things as the Hip Hop culture, the culture of drugs and the failure of the black community to assist in cleaning up their problems in their neighborhoods, it is completely undersandable why so many people continue to believe that all Affirmative Action programs is simply a waste of resources.
Hundreds if not Thousands of black leaders have been saying the same thing for years with no more success than you or I have had. Even some of these black leaders have become totally discouraged and have simply stopped trying. I find that I have reached the same level. I have tutored MANY blacks on a one on one basis and have seen FAR too many of them simply fail to come to a scheduled session for no other reason than "I forgot about it". And, still, they EXPECT their academic performance to magically improve simply because they attend class on a more or less regular basis. I could write a book about the excuses I have heard about why an assignment was not completed as required (both black students and white students do this far too often but Blacks more than any other ethnic group).
Learning is not a magical thing. It requires work, lots of work, ambition, dedication, and devotion to the task at hand. This overall problem has caused a "dumbing down" of curricula across the country from Kindergarden to Graduate School. There are still a very few colleges that have fought this tendency to dumb down and have simply refused to follow the pack. THESE institutions are the ones that employers with the best paying jobs and those with the greatest career potential go to for new hires.
There is a lot of "self help" that is required before things will change. Until Blacks (and every other disadvantaged group) learn this simple fact, there is little hope of any significant change.
look i know it is probaly beyond belief..but in no form or another we r all discreminated against...we make to much we dont make enuff.. we arent black or black enuff..we arent illegal..we might be discriminated.,.. we arent asian americans... . no we r just stupid for letting any of this mean anything.me i am hillybilly..lets see the aclu stood up for me when....never..me work 7 days a week...and for that ..wow get to pay more taxes and find out i must be a racists..even with b 50 50 kids...this country..has lost it has no ideal..no concept...nothing...but with a few more dollars they can pass a law to fix it..ooops we probaly dont have enuff money or influence.. to do anything..
davidsoltes comments regarding the percentage of black as a portion of society and prison do not indicate RACISM. By this rationale, the NBA discriminates against white people, as we're not represented by equal numbers.
Simple fact is MORE BLACKS PLAY BETTER BASKETBALL THAN WHITES. On the other topic, MORE BLACKS COMMIT CRIME THAN WHITES.
If you don't think racism is a one-way street; remember the movie "White men can't jump"? There was NO media circus, no protests, no Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton when it came out.
What if they made a movie called "Black men can't swim"?
Let's get over the race card politics. It's not equal OPPORTUNITY that they want, it's equal OUTCOMES. Simply put: I should have what you have, but don't want to work as hard to get it.
EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL, SPECIAL RIGHTS FOR NONE!
Well I was gonna say something, but this about sums it up (albeit with slightly different syntax that I'd have used)
until we can all stand together as one,we will always have racism.
i think its gonna be a long hard fight but we can prevail.
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Nothing tells more than the obvious,so why are we so blind!!!!!!!
"mauldo"
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The idea that there is no opportunity in poor neighborhoods is hogwash. If you are willing you can move up. I started working when I was 10 years old. When I was 17, I made one dollar an hour. That is not a typo. Today I am living phat and I am proud of my acomplishments. I also know what discrimination and quotas mean to people on the losing end. I was passed over for hundreds of jobs(that is not a typo either) because I was the wrong flavor. The professional victims of the world need to make a stand on their own two feet and stop crying for handouts. Equal opportunity is only there if you work for it.
Cheers
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