Ahh it is NOT Crap Quick. And the reason it did not spread in VN is that the Viet Nam debacle occurred in the context of a fairly cogent coherent flexible and multidimensional Grand Strategy (GS) called Containment. Plus we did play the China card quite deftly visavithe Russians and had a solid ASEAN multilateral economic and military structure in place (use the locals!) that DID limit the regional blowback reverb quite well. Plus Viet Nam was not in a particularly crucial geo-strategic area. All mitigated the defeat.
Now all those are not present in the Mid-east and that is a crucial Geo-Strategic area bar none that a host of nations DO have vital vested National interests in. The blowback from a defeat there will have severe reverb that cannot compare at all with VN. Now we have no Grand Strategy that will get us thru the tough sledding withe lousy incompetent policies like we have witnesses with Bush and Company. We have few cards to play because of a lack of a cogent GS and we have not much more than a smile and a shoeshine and a prayer to get us thru. To paraphrase the fabulous Furry Freak Brothers from the 60's - 'good strategy will get you thru times of bad policy better that bad strategy will get you thru times of good policy.'
GS is the key!! That is why I keep haranging you all on it!
But the Mid-East area whether we like it or not WILL remain a key part of the globe for a looonnngg time that must be stabilized in some way and out and oout defeat in Iraq will do just the opposite. We cannot (or ever could) realize victory there I agree totally with you on that - that and the democracy thing was a pie in the sky pipedream of the first order. But we cannot accept defeat as the blowback on such will be dire indeed. We need to find a middle way that has SOME Grand Strategic Context. (Remember Korea!) The world is watching. It is NOT all or nothing but a middle way and the ISG has made some pretty good starts at delineating that. Looks like both sides of the debate in DC are sidling up to the ISG findings more and more although will not admit. That gives me some hope.
And on the surge thing... we will adjust accordingly on how it turns out. But the whole surge thing as General Lute said yesterday on Cap Hill in so many words was and is about seeing what the Maliki Govt is ALL about! after Sept/Oct we will adjust accordingly.
John, I largely agree. My solution - declare a victory in Iraq and re-deploy our troops.
No one of repute backs the surge. We are generating more American-haters with each door kicked in, and more American deaths for no purpose.
I totally agree that there has been an absence of long-range strategy for quite some time, and a disturbing mis-direction in the last six years.
You don't have to say "a host of nations DO have vital vested National interests in" - just say OIL. Nobody wants the only other product from the MidEast, Camel dung.
A war of aggression that has become an insurgency is not winnable. A total change is needed - an admission by the next administration that we were wrong, and begin an honest dialog with all the nations in the MidEast - and beyond - Turkey, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia - are the main ones to focus on.
I hope for 2 things -
1)that Bush goes back to what he's best at - vacation, and takes Cheney with him - so things don't get screwed up worse in the next year & 1/2
2)That we get a president/vice president that isn't bought and paid for with intelligence... Kucinich, Hagel, Richardson, Ron Paul, Wesley Clark, ...
If we get Hillary, Giuliani, Romney, McCain,...... we're screwed.
US Marine vet Vietnam 4/68 - 8/69 5th District, NJ
Why does so many of out politicians want to back off Iraq??
They refused to back off at Waco and they had done nothing, killed no one.
Because it is their political life and poll results that moves them, the poor suckers at RR and Waco were victims that didn't have a voice and didn't matter. I like your question and comparison.
I am for the war on terrorism but not the way it is being conducted. We have lost the battle in Iraq, if we pull out, the war still goes on and we will be in it.
This is the second go round, B Sr. ignored the advice of Gen. Swarzcough, We go in the second time, meet the Republican Guard, disarm them and send them on their way. Where are they now? By the way, B. Jr. declared this war over right after it started, remember? 4+ years in wide open geography and we have not yet cut the supply lines? Whats that about? We have smart bombs, smart Generals and smart privates, why can't we fight a smart War?
We must find a proceedure that prevents the Commander in Chief from using military intervention for political gain.
Salaam!
the only way for us to prevail over terrorism and insurgencies would be for us to wipe their organizations out financially. Persuasion is also a key role for this to occur. Citizens in Middle Eastern countries need to be persuaded that acts of tyrrany and oppression, such as terrorism, are unjust. Like you said, we also need other Middle Eastern countries to join the cause; perhaps we should favor debates over this matter in the U.N. a little longer. Although, not much has ever gotten accomplished by the U.N. All that organization does is just to raise awarness of general issues pertaining to foreign countries. Prevention of terrorist recruitment is vital. I'll admit that the Bush administration had no idea of what the hell they were getting themselves into. They've destroyed the balance of power that had once existed between Shiite and Sunni dominated countries. Now, Iran a predominantly Shiite country, holds most of the military power in the Middle East. "This also means that they now have power of persuasion." It would be nice to have an unbiased administration, but unfortunately it is unlikely; unless the general public favors it openly. Now, tell me, how can we gain the support of all the major Middle Eastern countries? Most of these countries don't have the military power to eradicate terrorism in their countries, and by fighting against them would cost them billions like it has us. This would mean that in order for them to eradicate the terrorist and insurgency organizations in their countries, they would have to depend on our military power. This also means that they would have to allow us to send our troops into their countries. This is what has to be done in order to wipe out terrorism; cooperation and empathy between countries.
Look a little deeper at Richardson and Clark, you won't like what you find and will lump them in with your second group. The ties that bind the latter group are also wrapped around these two, maybe not as tightly but they are there and when their masters find it advantageous they will draw those ties tight in order to force them too to do their bidding.
Who do you like, and why? Also, list the "baddies"...
I'm surprised about Clark - I have read up on him, adn find so much to admire...
US Marine vet Vietnam 4/68 - 8/69 5th District, NJ
To no one's surprise here I like Ron Paul mainly for one reason,INTEGRITY!. He doesn't just talk the talk he walks the walk too. He is a prolific writer and the absolute best in DC on economic and monetary matters, something that before the next election will move to the front burner as far as issues are concerned.
On the Dem side I like Bob Bowman, again it is INTEGRITY. He was the first director of star wars under Ford and Carter, flew over 100 combat missions in Vietnam and is another America firster. I wish he were running. Of the Dems that are running there are two I could support, Dennis Kucinich and Mike Gravel. Both are like Paul in that their own party snubs them and I believe they are both honorable men who have the nation's best interest at heart, know how the system works and how it is supposed to work.
As for the baddies I won't get into the ones not running but the list is all inclusive in that every othe single candidate both Dem and Rep is bought and paid for and accepts money from organizaions either bent on harming the US or just robbing us blind. Hillary and Giuilani are special cases in that their agendas are purely and simply evil and eihter in the Whitehouse could spell doom for the Union. Find the common denominator of the baddies. It is the one lobbying group that "gives" to them all.
I am totally impressed with Rom Paul - integrity AND intelligence - both sorely absent for 6 years. Gravel, I'm afraid, is too old to take the pressure-cooker of presidency, but I hear his honesty.
You didn't comment on Hagel, Kucinich...
I did read that Obama has accepted no PAC funds, but I don't think he's got enough experience or thought-thru plans to be president, but I could support him as a Veep.
US Marine vet Vietnam 4/68 - 8/69 5th District, NJ
I did comment on Kucinich, he is one i could support.
Name the lobbying group.
I bet I know the answer, but it would be so much better (more revealing) if you named them.
Jeff C leikec@yahoo,com
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/1656
http://www.postchronicle.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=11&num=70952
http://www.newsnation.net/forum/viewtopic.html?t=3176
Tell me, HC; did the holocaust happen?
I believe you would be right in your element as Mel Gibson's drinking buddy...
Jeff C leikec@yahoo.com
I never said I blamed the "jews" for 911 nor did I say I blamed the apartheid state of israel. But I do think it odd that five israelis were caught filming the planes as they flew into the World Trade Centers and were dancing in celebration, two of whom turned out to be israeli intelligence agents. This was reported by none other than Carl Cameron of FOX news.
What I am saying is that AIPAC has too much influence over our government and our foreign policy. They make or break our elected leaders and thus usurp the power of the American people. Their members control our media and make damn sure we only see one side of the israeli-Palestinian conflict, hear nothing about their blatant attack on the USS Liberty, hear nothing about the massive israeli spying on America, their theft and consequent sale of top secret military and industrial technology to our enemies and much, much more. Too many of our bureaucrats have dual israeli-US citizenship and a man cannot serve two masters.
As for the holocaust, no I don't believe six million "jews" were killed in concentration camps, but I know a lot were. The Red Cross put the total number of all peoples killed in concentration camps at 271,000. Another thing is the fact that in most European countries you can now be jailed for "denying" the holocaust. Denying has now been interpreted as simply questioning it. Ernst Zundel was whisked from his home in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee, taken to Canada then deported to Germany and put on trial for "denying" the holocaust and is now rotting in prison for publishing results of his investigation of the holocaust. He was not allowed to use his research as part of his defense against this outrage. Since when does the truth need a "law" to back it up. AIPAC is the group pushing for legislation against "hate speech", which includes holocaust denial. In America we may not agree with what a person says but we recognize his right to say it, but not for much longer. If this legislation manages to pass your pastor or priest could be arrested for simply reading a passage from the Bible to his congregation that could be interpreted as "hate speech".
I would love to have a drink with Mel Gibson, I admire the man and his work, but I believe you would be more "in your element" as Alan Dershowitz's drinking buddy.
I know you have something to say, but many here, like HC, have nothing to do with a majority movement in this country. So, please ignore them. Entertaining these folks with retort keeps the "whacko" front and center when prospective delegates have a look-in.
Bill"for what we are together"
And I worry about emboldening the unhinged when I reply to a post of this sort.
But there is sometimes a need to put someone - even a damned fool - on the record. His posts were already out there; on display where any prospective delegate could see them.
It seems that there has been a flood of this drivel on this forum lately, and it is difficult (for me)to sit back and watch these senseless, baseless theories gain momentum while the rest of us stay silent; plaintively hoping that HC isn't representative of this organization's membership.
Jeff C leikec@yahoo.com
I agree we have coddled these wackos and conspiracists enough. Reminds me of the hatred of the former Nazis/Fascists and many jihadi/salafi/Islamist quarters that preach the existence of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and hatred of the Jews. My only advice to all these Volks is to maybe next time you are in DC to visit the American Holocaust Museum as you also visit the wonderful Smithsonian ones as well - http://www.ushmm.org . It is so vitally important to examine the wonderous things humanity can do of course in art and science etc, but is also so vitally important to examine carefully the tragic inhumanity that man can do against his fellow man and the well springs of such hate and in inhumanity if we are not careful. We must be willing and able to look history squarely in the eye and make sure such things never happen again!! So to HC and others such I wish you well but keep your mind open and if you ever get out DC way give a call/email and i would love to walk thru that Holocaust Museum with you. Sobering stuff to contemplate but necessary hard truths about us all.
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
I criticize AIPAC and their unwarranted influence over our government but I don't hear anyone denying it. What happens here is what happens in the MSM to anyone who dares question this organization, you get labeled an anti-semite, wacko, unhinged, "damned fool", jihadists, or Islamist. "Oh my God, he blames the jews for 911". A lot of posters here have cried foul about lobbyist's influence corrupting our government but I guess they escaped ridicule because they never actually named a lobbying group or an individual. Guess if I criticized Jack Abramoff I would have gotten the same treatment I have received for the remarks I have made about AIPAC. I also note that no one here disputes my accusations in my Me and Mel post. So if you don't like the message kill the messenger? Evidently Anal Dirtshowitz has it right, it is anti-semitic to question 911!
So stay on topic guys, prove me wrong about AIPAC. What's the matter, are you afraid of them too? Put up or shut up!
He wasn't "whisked" from his home; he was arrested for overstaying his visa.
I thought you wanted the immigration laws enforced.
Let's show the rest of the forum the truth about poor Ernst:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Zundel
Your right HC...
That poor little picked on Nazi - I almost feel sorry for him - except for the fact that he is doing so much more than "denying" the holocaust (which in and of itself is despicable, IMO).
By your heroes we shall know you...
Jeff C leikec@yahoo.com
And that would hardly be staying on topic there HC! it's really sad that this is what you are making of the Ron Paul campaign. You are doing Ron a great injustice there. AIPAC is no better or worse than many of the other organizations/nations influencing matters in this town. It is really sad and telling that you point out a Jewish one for special consideration. Tells a lot. I hope that Ron Paul is not awrae of your rants here HC.
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/07/AR2007060702535.html?hpid=topnews
Translation: GOP trying to find pro-war candidate who can beat Ron Paul.
Thompson will take in money at the expense of the other "front runners" Giuiliani and Romney, while the little people are adding immensely to the Paul coffers.
http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=43192
I do not think anyone of the Repubs esp McCain will really worry about Thompson. There is a reason he is delaying in getting in. Once he gets debating and in the fray, people will see very fast that Thompson is no Reagan. And nobody is really worried about Paul for that matter. In your dreams there HC. See below on Thompson:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/04/AR2007060401379.html
Excerpt:
"...Reagan, you might remember, went from show business to politics, while Thompson has gone the other way. He went from being bored in the Senate to waiting around a movie set so he could mouth words written by others -- maybe not all that different from the Senate, when you think about it. If there is a passion, an overriding sense of purpose in Fred Thompson, it is not apparent from his record. More apparent, clearly, is that he lacks any such thing.
Here is where he is so different from Reagan and why the comparison is wrong. Reagan was an ideologue. He had converted from New Deal liberalism to Barry Goldwater and Bill Buckley conservatism. It animated his life or, if not that, then at least his political career. He had a deadly serious reason for going into politics, and it was not, as it seemed to some at the time, a continuation of showbiz by other means. This is why he sought and won the California governorship, and after two terms, he ran for the presidency -- losing the first time out. By then he was no more an actor than Arnold Schwarzenegger is a competitive bodybuilder. Reagan had transformed himself. He was the dominant politician of the conservative moment. He was no pretty face.
Neither is Thompson, in all fairness. Yet he indisputably lacks the passion, the concern, the fire-in-the-bellydom that Reagan had -- not just for winning but about issues themselves. Thompson never showed that he was out to change matters, to right some major wrong, to fix the god-awful mess the country is in.....
The presidency is where a person can make the most difference. But the emergence of Thompson shows that a fatigued Republican Party is not interested in making any difference at all -- just in hanging on. What commends Thompson to the presidency -- the only thing anyone ever mentions -- is his TV fame. If that's all it takes, Thompson can look forward to being more than a president. He'll be an American Idol."
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
Thompson is bad news. He reminds me of that other "Law and Order" hack, "Spiral" Agnew.
Thomson is right there with Cheney in views....
US Marine vet Vietnam 4/68 - 8/69 5th District, NJ
It depends on what you want. Frankly, the president does little but communicate. It seems a professional communicator is a good idea.
Sons of the Repulic, Listen and Learn!
What will you do without freedom?
UPDATE: CNN FINDS DIRT UNDER RON PAUL'S FINGERNAILS
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/06/06/which-gop-candidate-flies-first-class/
He has never voted to raise taxes.
He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
He has never voted to raise congressional pay.
He has never taken a government-paid junket.
He does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program.
He returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.
Funny how CNN did not mention any of the above.
The People are making the MSM, GOP and Democratic Parties inconsequential in this election. Come on U08 delegates, get on the People's bandwagon!
This is to the crazy ones:
http://www.ronpaulnation.com/tv.html#ronpaul_nhlove
john i have to disagree with you as far as, nobody really knows what will happen if we pull out of iraq.
any opinion whether from you or a top military commander is just that an opinion. and many commanders will disagree with each other on what to do going forward. i am not saying you are wrong i am just saying there are many unknowns. there are also options of limited involvement as far as boots on the ground. i am also not advocating a pullout but i think it has to remain an option.
cheney truly got it right in 94' when he said overthrowing hussein would create a quagmire.