If the web site keeps improving and we look like we are really going to do something, I will go back to spreading the word. My personal reputation is at stake too.
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If the web site keeps improving and we look like we are really going to do something, I will go back to spreading the word. My personal reputation is at stake too.
Look, unless the stuff shown on the Unity08 site doesn't embarrass me, I could ask others to join. My personal reputation is at stake here too and I simply can not advise friends or anyone else to join Unity08 until the shoutbox is removed.
Unity08 - "It's the shoutbox stupid."
So, once again, you are willing to allow the small loud faction to override the needs and desires of the moderate multitudes? Unity08 can only succeed if we know what America wants. Sometimes, those that are loudest do not necessarily represent your (or my) desires, but we can all use this platform to discuss what is important to us and, hopefully, allow a consistent pattern to emerge that a Unity08 party ticket can take to the polls.
Did you really believe that that the conspiracy theorists wouldn't be drawn to a new platform like this? Nature abhors a vacuum. That doesn't define what we are doing here. Unity08 is about where we want to go, not where we've been or what has come before us. We hopefully will use that information to guide us.
By leaving, by criticizing and asking shoutbox to be removed you are falling prey to the same symptoms that plague America today -- inactivity. It's easier to avoid then to stand and fight. You talk of a reputation? What reputation is that to speak of? A great American? A patriot? Someone who would put his/her life on the line to change that which is broken? Is that the example you would set for your children?
The Shoutbox reflects the membership. It gives the best indication of the type of potential voter that we are attracting, and it shows exactly how (in my opinion)Unity08 is deteriorating.
When the Shoutbox is full of 9/11 conspiracy theories, and the energy section is full of talk about suppressed ideas (the 100mpg carburetor comes to mind), then this gives a good clue about the nature of the membership. For every John Milligan on the forum, there are 10 wackos.
This is exactly why Unity08 needs a platform. Unity08 should adopt a platform, so the people who support the platform can stay, and the people who don't support the platform can leave. It is that simple.
We are either a party of moderates, or we are a party of conspiracy buffs. Which is it? I would like to know that answer before I actively support Unity08.
When Unity08 tells the press that they have a membership of 50 thousand, it is a lie. They have fifty thousand people who came to the website and signed up, but they don't have fifty thousand members, because many of the people (most of them moderates)decided to leave.
I would be surprised if Unity08 has an actual strength of five thousand members - and I am afraid that too many of those members believe in things that I can't support.
Many of those members want to reincarnate the John Birch Society, and I will never support that. Many of those members think the US was involved in 9/11, and I will never believe that. Many of those members think that Timothy McVeigh was not responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing, and I find that idea laughable - but it is exactly the sort of wacko idea that shows up daily in the Shoutbox.
And how many of the members are like you and me - we won't go out and recruit for the organization, because we may end up being embarassed by the final product, and we are certainly embarassed by many of the ideas expressed daily in the Shoutbox. But we need to put the blame where it belongs.
The Shoutbox isn't the problem. The wacko ideas won't go away just because the Shoutbox is closed; the wackos will only leave when Unity08 doesn't reflect their values.
And right now, the Shoutbox is defining Unity08, because Unity08 will not define what it stands for - this has been the fatal flaw since the beginning.
A lack of leadership at Unity08 is the problem. The Unity08 leadership needs to stand for something tangible.
Jeff C leikec@yahoo.com
I agree with your comments - Jeff. It will take an agenda and platform to get people excited. There are a lot of people that are just feed up with politics, politicians, and the lopsided news media. The top quality that is requested of a candidate is the ability to bring people together. That appears to be the goal of this website but it seems to be stuck in neutral. Myabe it is just growing pains. To go forward, we have to see what the parties have done wrong. Critics is not increasing unity but dividing instead.
A platform is the way to weed out the candidates. We do not want just a party member that did not make it in the party and tries through another way. We want someone that understands the issues and either party is not the best place for them. The parties are taken over by extremists and that is not a place for the unifier that we need and want.
It's more for the membership. The candidate will fall into place later.
We need a membership that can work together - and we need a membership that will speak together on the critical issues.
We all have certain issues where we agree - but there are issues where we have diverging opinions. Some of these disagreements may be minor, but some disagreements are on "core" issues - where a person may not be able to abide with a contrary position.
The platform will sort much of this out, and it will allow members to know what sort of organization they are involved in.
Jeff C leikec@yahoo.com
Negativity and calling people wackos because they have an opposing opinion is the reason people leave. The soapbox is just an exercise to allow people to hash out differing opinions and hopefully come to a middle ground.
See my forum, The exerciseo of debate.
Betty
Betty327@ptd.net
Do you believe that 9/11 was an American conspiracy?
Do you believe that Timothy McVeigh is innocent?
Do you believe that the government is suppressing energy technology so new higher mileage carburetors can't see the light of day?
Do you think the Income Tax is unconstitutional?
Do you think that the MSM is full of un-american traitors who lie in the news every day to bring down this country? Is Tom Brokaw a traitor?
Is there a shadowy group of "elites", who control our every move? Are the Clinton and Bush families working together to control America?
Should the "last three presidents, and one vice president, be sent to the gallows"?
If so, then fine... get enough people to believe you, and form a political organization to promote your agenda. I will fight you every step of the way.
I believe that the above ideas are moronic. The agenda to support those ideas is a wacko, stupid agenda - sometimes you have to call it what it is - and I believe that Unity08 is harmed when those ideas appear on the Shoubox unchallenged by those of us who can separate reality from fantasy.
Unity08 refuses to define itself, so the Shoutbox defines Unity08.
I will not let the above ideas define Unity08 if I can help it - and if you want serious debate on the issues, then you should also be worried by how potential members see this movement.
Jeff C leikec@yahoo.com
Granted, some of those ideas are out their, but calling people names only results in them digging in deeper and does nothing to change their minds. If you disagree, merely ask for credible weblinks that support their view. Credible is the key word here. Everyone knows there is alot of garbage floating around.
Betty
Betty327@ptd.net
But I will use my own judgement on my posts and take responsibility for the content. You are free to comment as you wish.
There is a lot of garbage floating around; sometimes you have to call it garbage.
Jeff C leikec@yahoo.com
I bid you adieu U08. I have said my peace. Continue on, select your candidates. If they are truly good ones the MSM will destroy them in the public's eyes, or at least attempt to. If they survive the media the PTB,s will destroy them.
While reflecting on the carving of half of the sun on the back of wooden chair George Washinton compared it to the Union and pondered whether it was a rising or a setting sun, and finally decided it was a rising sun. Well the sun is setting on the Republic for now and will only re-emerge after a period of darkness.
I hope i have created enough curiosity on behalf of many of you to dig for asnwers to critical questions and to expose the lies. As for some of you whom a mountain of evidence would not convince of the truth, because you can not handle the truth, i will no longer cast my pearls before swine.
http://www.soul.org/Legend2.html
I've read through the comments in this thread, and I just wanted to mention a few things, some of which I've touched on before.
One is that we are as frustrated with the Shoutbox as some of you are: It is clunky, disorganized, and exceedinly difficult to keep track of posts and discussions. This is something we have been looking to change, and I think you'll see some dramatic improvements in the not too distant future.
I also appreciate the ongoing discussion about developing a platform. I've said it before, but for what it's worth, we truly believe that for U08 to work, it can't be defined in terms of a specific ideological platform at this stage. We instead believe it should be a vehicle that the vast middle can seize next Spring, when they wake up and realize that -- once again -- the two parties have nominated uninspiring candidates through a process that cuts out most average folks. We want them to see U08 as something they can help shape and define -- the instrument by which we can actually create a viable, electable third choice in politics.
Then, we really believe, is the time to make decisions about the New American Agenda. But if we do it now and define ourselves in an exclusive way, we will severely limit our potential appeal in the Spring of 2024. Eventually, there are going to be people who aren't happy with the U08 New American Agenda -- just as there would be people who would be unhappy with whatever platform we might now draw up. But if we have a big enough delegate poola year from now, we'll be able to survive that attrition. I don't think we can now.
One final note: That doesn't mean we can't have serious discussions about what should and shouldn't be a part of the New American Agenda. And one thing we'd like to do inthe near future is some informal polling of members here -- as a tool to guide the discussion, if nothing else. I'd be interested in hearing anyone's thoughts for how we might do this...
You may limit your potential appeal to some, but you will become something that the rest of us can embrace.
Right now, you are basically asking people to invest their reputations in an organization that has no soul. We aren't willing to go out and recruit members because we are worried that we will be apologizing to them later - when Unity08 finally figures out what it stands for...
Jeff C leikec@yahoo.com
Steve I think we need to start working on defining ourselves in a NONEXCLUSIVE way. That does not mean specifically delineating solutions but throwing down some some basic centrist big tent paramenters and delineating general range of possible moderate implementable solutions that possible Unity candidates and Unity members can chime in on and build on and attract additional members/good possible candidates.
THEN when the time is ripe after Super-Duper Tuesday next Feb we will have something to go with and not start from sqaure one! Don't look now but the parties are starting to debate/define the issues now six months before they normally do. We need to accelerate the timetable on this American Agenda thing!!
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
In a way your right but I think u08 knows exactly what it's doing. If they roll out too soon it will give our enemies a lot of time to destory Unity08 and if they roll out a canidate too soon they the people will be sick of them by spring next year, just as they will be sick of those with their hat in this race now. I'd rather not give those who would destroy u08 more time to plan and attack, better to lay low for awhile longer.
Betty
Betty327@ptd.net
There are elements of truth there - no doubt about it.
But Unity08 doesn't have the membership numbers to make a difference.
The argument is that Unity08 should attract as many people now as possible without defining any positions, and then figure out the American Agenda next year by popular vote.
But Unity08 isn't growing.
If a wagon goes down the road, and people are loading wood into the front end (and counting every stick), while the wood falls off the back end, then that isn't growth; the wood has to stay in the wagon for the count to mean anything.
In politics, you either define yourself, or other people define you.
John Milligan is right: Unity08 can play it halfway - enough to give the movement definition (and enough so we can go out and recruit with confidence), but not to the point where the organization becomes a "small tent" special-interest group. Unity08 can define itself and still be inclusive.
Jeff C leikec@yahoo.com
I would agree with that statement complete. We do need some sort of platform and can have that without exposing the finer details of the operation, so to speak.
Betty
Betty327@ptd.net
So we can be on the ballot on all 50 states. Unity08 is cutting this very close - and that isn't a good sign.
I'm glad we agree - there is a middle ground where you and I can disagree on an issue like immigration, but be aligned on other issues such as spending, government accountibility, and etc...
A "big tent" party can hold both of us - as long as we weight the issues properly.
Jeff C leikec@yahoo.com
Your right, I don't think two people can agree on every point and sometimes it best to agree to disagree. On the local level, I was just thinking the same thing. It could help in recruiting. I am personally working on a sign that I intend to put on my front lawn directing people to Unity. I am also giving them my email if they wish to contact me. Hopefully this will help. I have trouble getting around but would like to start a local chapter, but that would not be easy and I'm not sure how Unity feels about it, but it is something.
Betty
Betty327@ptd.net
Hi – just popping by to drop my 2 cents on this subject.
For the purposes of this discussion, let’s divide the electorate as follows:
1) The Vast Middle
2) The Extreme Left & Right
The “Extremes” (not a MoTown group) in 2) are the “establishment” players in the Democratic and Republican parties. They use the existing machinery of those institutions to raise money and get out the primary vote. They are the “bad guys” (and gals) of the system we all (here) say we don’t like.
Let’s subdivide 1): The “Vast Middle” - some more:
A) The apathetic middle. (Doesn’t vote).
B) The casual middle – (Gets all its politics from TV).
C) The informed middle. (Reads newspapers and internet material).
D) The wacko fringe (Live, read, write, breathe, blog, & sh*t the internet).
(These are your friendly neighborhood conspirators).
The Unity “leadership” – by waiting until next Spring to establish “The American Agenda,” wants to recruit groups C) and B).
But here’s the key: They’re only going to get D)'s. Why? The B)'s never go on line (except to shop) and the C)'s will be long gone. They're not interested in being part of a movement to elect "none of the above."
So, to retain the C)'s...
***
Unity needs a “Virtual Caucus” mechanism - NOW. By that, I mean an internet process that mimics the tried and true “real world” mechanism used to debate issues and reach a consensus on them. This will involve “virtual rooms” with a virtual soapbox that people can “listen to” or “walk away from” by voting up or down on the speakers whose ideas they like – or don’t. The C)’s don’t have a lot of time to hang around – but will read and vote thoughtfully.
Those of us who are advocating a platform – and a process to achieve one - have faith in and want to attract group C). The D)’s will continue hang around and try to throw Molotov Cocktails at the process, but they can be dealt with – if there is a critical mass of C)’s that vastly outnumber them – AND the convergence mechanism (Virtual Caucus) is designed properly.
***
Finally – those that call themselves “Leaders” or “Founders” of this web site need to be more specific about actions and timetables – and deliver on their promises. I still haven’t seen an acknowledgement that the goal of a “Best in breed website by early 2024” wasn’t met. This hurts your credibility with the C) group – and causes us to flee in disgust.
a 'Virtual Caucus' is intriguing and perhaps innovative. I think analogous software (and websites) has been developed for online live bidding with simultaneous chat. Should adapt easily.
Bill"for what we are together"
Every tool needed to build the community you speak of is freely available within the Open Source software community. Its free, easy to set up and could be done in a weekend or two. But U08 dithers.
In fact, it would be wise to mimic the communal nature of the Open Source community; its ability to self organize AND self moderate; its implied politics of self-reliance and communal comittment; its economic foundation of a free and willing exchange of value.
But U08 dithers. Rome burns. Send in the clowns.