Well, I don't see the topic here I started on the MSNBC/Politico.com Republican Debates.
Why would the moderator delete THAT????
Anyway here are my present sense impressions of it
http://dyn.politico.com/members/forums/thread.cfm?catid=2&subcatid=9&threadid=6745#7619
Now, is Quicksilver going to start a reduntant topic?
How about you, reino?
http://journals.aol.com/kweinschen/Veritas/
We've asked you to stop with personal comments about your fellow posters. This is your final warning.
WOW! If I counted, it would've probably hit 50 times I heard Reagan mentioned.
The only one I'd even consider voting for would be Ron Paul. He was straight talking, and made sense.
Tancredo, Huckabee, and Hunter seemed forthright and honest, but I didn't agree with them on critical points.
The Weasel Word Award goes to Brownback. He would talk without giving an answer, and those times when he did give an answer, it was the wrong one.
Giuliani and McCain & Romney spun their pasts - talked around their "Flip-flops" on Iraq, Abortion, etc. Weasel word silver medals.
Gilmore and THompson left no impression.
I at first thought I tuned into a religious show - their proclaiming of faith was astounding. My problem there is that Bush alleges he is a Christian, yet doesn't practice honesty. I heard nearly all say Roe V Wade should be overturned, and against stem cell research - alleging they regard all life as sacred - the same stance as Bush, who presided as Governor of Texas over more executions than all the other states combined. What you say you are and what your really are - particularly with politicians - is often 2 different things.
The funniest part was to hear several speak about reducing government spending and the size of government - HELLO! You guys have been in control.....
Second funniest - Iraq - it's not over yet, so can't say whether it was a good idea or not !!!! Too soon to tell? AFTER 4 YEARS?
Third funniest was I saw 4 or 5 hands go up to question that they didn't believe in evolution. I wonder if the same hands would've gone up if asked whether they believe in gravity.
The scariest part was several said we should be considering attacking Iran!!!!! Oil - good to the last drop....
US Marine vet Vietnam 4/68 - 8/69
It would have been nice if they would have let the candidates have a couple of minutes each to describe what they each percieve as the biggest problems the country faces and what their plans were to fix them. The talking heads immediately said the front runners were still the front runners after the debate, but from my observation they simply blended into the pack.
I think the Debate's attempts to resurrect/channel Reagan is to bring back what Reagan essentially was - A Big Band-Aid over a sore festering wound that is the Republican Party at its core. Without Reagan and with W Bush's incompetencies rampant and unchecked, the Repubs are now splintered so much that it will take a Reagan turincut to fix this one. That is why the 10 will probably become 13 soon (Fred T, Newt and Hagel about to enter the fray). It's Splinter-time at the OK Coral for Republican-land.
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
The "splintered republicans" is in my opinion not a bad thing but quite the reverse. The voters will have to look at each splinter in order to make a decision on which candidate resonates with their expectations of what the chief executive should encompass. I agree the Reagan lovefest was over the top but don't think it is fair to lump Reagan into the same category as the Bush's. If two Presidents emulated each other in policy it would be George Bush Sr. and Bill Clinton with W picking up their agenda and propelling it into overdrive. JMHO
All have kicked the proverbial nation-killer mega-issues can down the road. Bush 2's incomptencies have just glossed over that can-kicking IMHO. And the Special Interests/Lobbyist/K-Streeters are so adept at exploiting the Republican (and Demo)splintering can-kicking ends-means disconnects as their burgeoning numbers and pocketbooks show so sadly. It's been can-kicking heaven here in DC in the last 20 or so years and the Special Interest hogs have been feasting Big Time!! All while the Republic sinks deeper into that Tar Pit!
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
Were u impressed with any of the Repubs in the debate, and out of the current candidates, both Dem and Rep who would have the edge on your vote at this point? Just curious.
No not really...I like Governors so I would tend to the Tommy Thompson or Mitt Romney at this point if I were a Repub. I use to really like McCain but he has launched the Panderbear express now to get the nom! Sad! But if Hagel got in there I would pick him as the best of lot - true political courage and the willingness to tick off his base constituents to stand by principle (one of my key criteria for a Prez or any political leader for that matter). And I'd go for for Arnie if he/we could.
On the Demo side the same thing I like Governors so Richardson would be my top pick with his experience and all. Otherwise its is slim pickins on the political courage side. Most will be activist panderbears. I like non-runners like Bob Kerrey, San Nunn, Bill Bradley, Robb, Warner, Lieberman and such there for the Dems/Indies.
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
Your comments while in some cases valid - as usual were presented as personal attacks on almost everyone there - and one who wasn't !!
Using your feelings about the Debate, to Take A Swipe At Bush - because The Citizens of Texas elected to Enact & Use The Death Penalty - What's That All About ??
I was not impressed by anything I heard during the debate - and I was less impressed by the tone and content of your critique ..
Quicksilver, I would really like to know what makes you so angry and bitter - that you have to attack everybody that doesn't see things your way ..
You obviously care strongly about things - so do I, and I have to work at putting my feelings into words - that will achieve a worthwhile objective : not just be blasting to get get things off my chest ..
Please, when you've calmed down - re-read your critique, and see if you can agree with at least part of what I've said.
popo
My point about Bush was he repeats over and over what a Christian he is, and yet he lies (1 quick example - "Rumsfeld will stay") and yes, as governor he was elected, but he could have commuted the sentence to life in prison, couldn't he? Or is that only in the movies? Actions tell me what a person believes, not what they say they believe. It has been my life experience that someone who advertises religion is someone to beware of.
US Marine vet Vietnam 4/68 - 8/69
My anger stems from having experienced an earlier war we were also lied into, also mis-managed, and here I hear the war drums again. Seems we have learned nothing from history. We had 2 presidents in a row that ducked serving in 'Nam.
I am also angry we had a warning in '93 with the first WTC bombing, had 9/11, and learned nothing from those warnings - still have wide-open borders.
I am angry we had 2 gas crises in the late 70s, but got away from thoughts of conservation and adopted the SUV and pickup as vehicles of choice. (so you know, I have only ever owned 4-cylinder cars, the family car is a V-6 mini-van, all domestic).
I am sick of no oversight of spending - rigged contracts, non-delivery on contracts.
I am angry at our government encouraging shipping jobs overseas, employees treated as indentured servants.
I am sick of party politics while I see my country degraded world-wide.
I am angry that while I have health insurance, far too many Americans don't.
I am angry that our government is for sale to the highest bidder - the prescription drug plan written by, and for, the drug companies.
I am angry at the use of religion being used as a wedge issue - seems to me those professing they own the moral high ground have proven otherwise.
I am angry about wedge issues, period.
I am angry that debate on issues degenerates into personal attacks - as you point out, I have become guilty of the same - it's the prevalent method - that is counter to arriving at a solution - and I get angry at myself for letting it happen - I know better.
I was favorably impressed with Ron Paul.
I am happy this site exists, and that I see others fed up, like me.
I am happy that there are now more independents than democrats or republicans.
I am happy that there are truly religious people that don't feel compelled to force me to think as they do.
I am happy democrats won virtually every seat they could in the '06 elections - not that they are inherently better, but at least some of the abuse of power and abuse of trust has been halted and is being brought to light.
I am happy to see the MSNBC polls show that other people see the candidates as I do.
I am happy that while you and I have disagreed, Popo, there are other times we've agreed, and you haven't insulted me or triggered me to insult you.
I am happy I still have hope for America - I haven't given up.
US Marine vet Vietnam 4/68 - 8/69
You and I are angry about all the same things - as far as the New Democratic Congress goes - I was hoping to see more Wisdom and Committment to America's interests in the crisis the World faces with Islamic Extremism (see my posting on www.america-21stcentury.com "Prediction : It's The 1930's All Over Again" !!
Our mutual friend John Milligan PIN POINTED Two of The Most Critical Issues any UNITY08 Agenda needs to address .. "ENTITLEMENTS & A NEW GRANDE STRATEGY FOR OUR FOREIGN POLICY - a Policy Based On Wisdom, Dedication, Integrity and Compassion"
America like other great Societies of the past - needed to learn to lead by example, not force of arms.
God Bless - Stay Well
popo
Grand strategy? What's that? It's been absent.
See, Popo, we agree on a lot. I want wisdom, Dedication, Integrity, and Compassion - they have been sorely absent. The wisdom should give us a long-range view, that backing despots, while it works in the short term, hurts us in the long run. I recall the picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam - that suited us in the short term...
Ron Paul made a lot of sense.
US Marine vet Vietnam 4/68 - 8/69
A lot of us are angry Popo. You and I agree on one thing however, that America is great. And as an angry American, I want my country back! I get angry when I hear my Leaders say "Mission accomplished", "the insurgency is in its death throes", "you're doin a heckuva job Brownie". I want to shout at these leaders, "How stupid do you think I am?" I am angry with the lies and deceptions. I am angry at the inconsistencies, "All Life is sacred except criminal's lives"? I am angry with the spin, "It's not a surge it's an augmentation."
I am angry and fearful, Popo that our sacred institutions are being damaged, perhaps irreparably. Talk of frivolous ammendments to our Constitution, legislating discrimination OR freedom of speech, frighten me. If we, as a nation say flag burning is against the law (and let me say here that I find flag burning repugnant), emboldened by that ammendment, do we next say the lawn sign in my yard saying "Bring the troops home NOW" is illegal? Bit by bit, one by one, our liberties and freedoms are being eroded, think here the Patriot Act, and I fear that some day we will wake up and shake our heads in wonder and ask "How did this happen?"
We need to get angry Popo. Or we will lose this country that we all love.
I am Angry also there Joe and Quick. But more angry at the what Bush 2 esp has been about and that is they just have no idea what the hell they are doing!! Pure and simple - no conspiracies just mostly abject stupidity, incompetency, shooting from the hip! He has demonstrated a real seat of the pants make it up as you go along incompetency that is in dire deen of change. and also I am angry that the last 3 or 4 Presidencies before W have kicked the can down the road and have done the seat of the pants routine (more competently though than Bush) and papered over our 2 Really Big Kahuna Nation-Buster Mega-Issues that nobody seems to addrees - Entitlement Reform and Foreign Policy Grand Strategy.
The last 3 or 4 Presidencies and Congress and the American people by the way (can't absolve us as complicit also) have bought into this can kicking have-it-all-now without-any-shared-sacrifice the-heck- with-the-next-generation-or-two mentality. We elect these guys and we all love our Congressmen or our Special Interest, but then turn around and decry Congress and the special interests. until we America voters also own up to our own complicity in all this then the can-kicking on the biggie issues will just go on to the Real detriment of the Repulic's future. THAT is what REALLY makes me angry!!
So we all need to suck it up and own up to our responsibilities to the present state of affairs and hold our Connressmen, Prez, and above ALL ourselves accountable. Until we do ALL that I'm going to be REAL Angry! We need to stop wallowing in our anger and whining and get the show on the road to decent rational doable moderate bipartisan centrist alternatives that hold ALL to account (give out the Hard Truths )even us the voter. That to me is what Unity can and MUST do - or I'm going to remain mighty angry and sad for the future of this blessed Republic for which we stand!
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
I am very angry with this President too, John and mostly because of his biggest lie.
He told us "I am a Uniter not a Divider". LIAR!
We are divided more that ever. That is exactly where these people want us. Divided. "A House divided against itself can not stand". There you have it. It is ALL about POWER and holding on to POWER!
Red states vs blue states; conservative vs liberal; rich vs poor; keeping us divided. I am angry, angry, ANGRY!
And we fell for that bit of Rovian 'Uniter' palp not once but twice. What wise person said "Fool us once shame on him. Fool us twice shame on us!!" Applies here in spades. We all need to look in the mirror when we get angry on this point!
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
http://www.capitalnews.org/ Comments anyone?
We needed a "None Of The Above" choice on the GOP debate Poll there RP!
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
We also need a "None of the above" choice on the Democratic debate polls. Wanna bet which one of the two gets the most votes?
As with Mike Gravel's newfound popularity in the South Carolina Democratic Debate the people are speaking. They are telling us that the candidates whose stances on issues most reflect their own will be rewarded and they are telling the one party system "no more". It is amazing how many the Bush's and Clinton's have run out of their own parties. I believe Independents now out number membership in the two party system, if not in registration in demonstration.
The mainstream media that runs interference for the mainest (pardon the speech) of the mainstream candidates, ie Hillary and Guillani, is being surpassed by the internet in terms of where people get their news. Howard Dean put it on the map as a tool for campaigning but now it has taken on a life of it's own.
I personally hope that New Hampshire ends up being the first state to go to the primary polls. Just something about having the state with the motto "LIVE FREE OR DIE" be the first to cast ballots. Like popo said, "at some point we have to trust the voters".
Yes RP we must trust te voter, but the voter must accept responsibility for their actions in the voting booth which IMHO they are want to do when politicains elected start hitting the reality of governing and they see how much their little and big "Oughta dos" acually cost. That is when the voter gets disillusioned with the growing perception and facts of the ends-means disconnect foisted upon the voters by the parties and the candidates but bought into by the voter. But the voter need to start asking the costs (in terms of taxes, shared sacrifice, tradeoffs/priorities) of all the wonderful programs and policies a candidate/party propounds.
That is what I hope Unity can do with our issues agenda platform and with our candidates - total upfront levelling with some Hard Truths costed out and thrown in there and some candidates ready and willing to give the voter some hard truths on what is possible/doable and stand by his/her principles. That to me is the definition of true political courage. Because as Rory Stewart said - we have no moral obligation to do what we cannot do.
http://unity08.com/node/1016
The candidates must be clear on that key point and the voter must demand it!!
And as for Gravel - well one poll does not a campaign make. I'll be VERY surprised if the Demo-Repub candidates are not Hillary and McCain media or not - just my idle prognostication! And Remember - Dean lost.
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
As of this point in the process my dream ticket would be to no one's surprise here i am sure Ron Paul and Mike Gravel. I believe the corrupt establishment picks are Rudy and Hillary for the same reason we have GWBII now, to keep the lid on the crimes of the three previous administrtions and to further the neo-con agenda.I am sure the lamestream media is as busy trying to dig up some dirt on Paul and Gravel now and to do all they can to keep them out of any more debates. Probably as busy as they are in making sure no dirt shows up on Hillary and Rudy. Hillary's campaign would have already been over if the LSM had not buried the story of the videos clearly implicating her in campaign finance felonies. The people's biggest challenge is not picking good candidates but in recognizing the manipulation of facts by the media. It is interesting that the only candidate that was asked in the GOP debate whether or not he trusted the Lamestream media was Ron Paul. I hope God above is watching over Ron Paul or he will suffer the same fate as Wellstone and JFK Jr.
While I liked much of what Gravel said, I am concerned he's 77 now - and we all know the presidency ages one. Paul is 5+ years younger, but even that puts him a year older than McCain.
If the media can't find dirt, they just make up something - look at what they did to Dean - took his yell and portrayed him as crazy - he's from from crazy. They'll just take soundbites out of context and bury somebody.
US Marine vet Vietnam 4/68 - 8/69
Don't underestimate the predicament that the powers that be find themselves in now. Joe sixpack is watching the debates and the candidates with greater interest than at anytime in the past. Gravel and Paul's names and debate performances are smeared all over the altenate media intensifying the light being shed on the mainstream media's culpability. IMO there are three major issues in this election, the Iraq war, illegal immigration, and the economy. Abortion, stem cell research etc. are being put on the back burner. Agree or not a majority of the People want a stop to illegal immigration now, our troops out of Iraq now and they want their jobs back. Since Bernanke and the Fed stopped publishing M3 (total money supply) the printing of money has in an effort to monetize our debts soared. Many economists think it is growing at over 10% per year which means that much or more inflation. The Fed is backed into a corner, if they lower rates they finish off the dollar, which is dying a slow agonizing death anyway, and if they raise rates they finish off the economy, ie housing will implode. Three dollar a gallon gas and higher grocery bills are not included in "core inflation" released by the gov't but are being felt by the public in a huge way. Jobs leaving for overseas in on the uptick again. The comptroller general of the US is going city by city telling the public we are broke and the "the greatest threat we face is not someone in cave in Afghanistan or Pakistan but our own fiscal responsibility". None of this is lost on the People.
I'd like to agree that Americans are more interested in what politicians are about. I have seen much evidence of that here in Pennsylvania where we are in generally open revolt.
You know one critical thing Unity must do is continue to raise awareness that who we vote on and what they will do makes all the difference in the world.
Yep, them cats is too old.
The race for the GOP nomination is over! I just realized this today. If you don't believe me the MSNBC ABC and C-SPAN polls are all posted here on this site. I have never seen anything like it. The PTB'S must be scared out of their socks. Has anyone in history ever come out of the gates like this before? Hope he stays off small airplanes and I wonder who has the guts to be his running mate?
http://abcnews.go.com/politics/beseenbeheard/popup?id=3135373&POLL288=4000000
Anger is a good thing - if it's directed against deeds harmful to Human and Animal Life AND, produces appropriate and timely changes to correct things ..
I've been angry since the late 1960's - when I first uncovered acts by Congress that represented grave threats to our social and economic future, my efforts to change things then are a matter of Public Record ..
I'm angry because I had to give up the fight back then - because I had a growing family to support ..
I'm angry because in spite of all my efforts back then - and now since September 2024, nothing has changed - they have even got worse ..
I'm angry because I know, UNLESS UNITY08 establishes a Means To Deliver On Its Promise To Take Back Our Country BEFORE THE ELECTIONS of 2024, Winning The White house Will Do Little To Bring About The Political Reforms It Will Take To Do The Job ..
I'm angry because I believe in UNITY08's strategy To Win The White House, and because they will not respond to me on the Plan I've proposed for making sure - we can deliver on our promise after we win !!
Unfortunately Quicksilver - I haven't yet found a way to make my anger produce the results I feel are important to everyone - not just me !!
Like you - I'll hang in there and keep trying !!
God Bless - Stay Well and we will make it ..
popo
Pete Evans
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18436681/
As of this posting, Ron Paul got the highest positive votes on the poll! Apparently he didn't just impress me! I'm encouraged.
Was there a similar poll after the democratic "debate" ?
I do see a "rating" poll
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18300340
Shows Edwards & OBama ahead of Hillary (YEA!) and Biden & Richardson within striking distance.
Not really a surprise, but Hillary has the smallest "no opinion" rating of anybody: 36% don't want her, 31% "no opinion", and 33% like her, whereas all the others are at least 40% "no opinion".
Here's the same simple rating for republicans -
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18421356/
More don't like Giuliani than like him, and he and Romney are neck-and-neck with the low "no opinion" - Ron Paul leads/ties on favorable, with 40% "no opinion".
The "no opinion" is the area for a candidate to grow. Seems Ron Paul has a chance, Hillary's star may be fading...
US Marine vet Vietnam 4/68 - 8/69
I don't know if there was a similar poll for the Democrat debate but i would bet if there was the winner would have been Mike Gravel. His web site was buried in people trying to donate to his campaign after the debate. I would assume the mainstream candidates did their own polls after the debate and are trying to rein in upstarts like Gravel. Same for the Repubs, they have to be terrified since none of their mainstream candidates rose above the crowd last night.