Do we want to make enforcement of our borders and immigration policies a priority? If yes, how much ought we actually do?
We need to address our borders. Not only to the south, but north and also, ports. Security has to concern us all.
Illegal immigration should be dealt with with a comprehensive plan. Included in such a plan has to be: 1. close the borders 2. punish those who hire illegals 3. temporary worker plan and 4. address those millions already here.
The biggest problem with addressing this issue is that those who wish to keep the border open use the label "Racist" and those who wish to close the border are all too often racists.
At some point we have to trust the voters.
Rebel Yell, Battle Him', Bluebelly , Yankee or Grey Devil ring a bell! Slaves and offshore wars for corporate expansion or union wages. babies and conservative living? The choice is... but if you don't get some slaves quickly you will become one! Then you can kiss kids and any kind of life goodbye!~ MADE IN THE U.S.A. BY A UNION or chuck it! Independent Protectionist - GOD SAVE THE REPUBLIC! IM: earnsnyder@yahoo.com For more policies visit www.appyp.com/fix_main.html - Earn Snyder
When things get this bad forget about volunteers of any quality or sense... the union must draft the most capable and efficient and forget about the money or the politics as the path is clear and drastic! Not only is it obvious but we must run as time and the weather enables drastic leverage for STRONG REFORMS YESTERDAY without regard to convenience, changing our ways or profit margins!!! ...... - Earn Snyder For more policies visit www.appyp.com/fix_main.html
Funbobfasso is right on!
We "silent majority' Americans must stop being silent and get very loud. If we're unable to move our so called reps in Washington, we should strieve to replace every member of Congress who refuses to do the right thing.
Bombard your reps with emails, phone calls and mail; and enlist all your friends to do the same. If we stand together, we can take our country back.
God Bless America!
Lou Andreadis
"illegal immigrants" has been a problem for many years and has been the topic of many café discussions.I have written many letters to my Representatives and still our congress side steps the issue.The problem can be solved in an easy manner. They are criminals and any one hiring them is aiding and abetting a criminal.Make federal laws to put the employers in jail and cut off the jobs.No jobs no need to come here.We the born here have to fill out paper work when every we turn on lights,rent or buy a house,rent or buy a car,get SS card,to vote,and many other things to live out our lives in this country and now the people who sell and rent and take our tax's say they cant tell if they were born in this country. A judge on fox news says there is a demand for the illegal workers and they have a right to come here to fill the demand.replace the word illegal worker with drugs and you can see why they cant send them back home or stop drugs.
Stop the jobs and stop the illegal aliens and hire some 6 million unemployed and homeless Americans.No job ,No need to come to America.
Put the US back in USA
I have apologized elsewhere for not better moderating these forums, and this is the sort of thing I should have been responding to much sooner.
Immigration reform is an emotional issue, one that has been shamefully exploited by some to gain a partisan or ideological edge. The whole point of Unity08 is to discuss issues like this rationally and with civility and respect. That is the attitude that produces results. Emotionalism results in polarization and paralysis.
No matter what you think of this issue, it is inappropriate and completely inconsistent with the spirit of Unity08 to liken human beings to illegal drugs.
Let's have this discussion. But let's do it with some class.
Steve,
You may get mad at me for posting this - so I will apologize in advance for stirring the pot.
If you want to hold back the navitist tone of this debate, you need to find some way to channel Spiderman's super powers - because it will be an uphill climb.
Navitism (and some outright bigotry) abounds on this forum. And while navitism is a great red-meat talking point for a fringe third party, it is really a simplistic slippery slope toward irrelevance, and it is standing in the way of Unity08's chances for success.
Unity08 can only survive (and thrive)if the movement appeals to moderates - and most moderates believe that some form of amnesty will have to occur if we want to get on top of this problem. This is in direct conflict with the navitist thinking found on this website, and it has to be resolved.
It is completely farcical to think that the US will engage in a campaign of mass deportations and detention camps (as some in this forum have suggested). This would be a human-rights disaster, and history would judge us harshly if we persued this course of action. If you believe in nativism, then this is what you are supporting - there is no "civil" way to phrase this; it is what it is....
If the solution is unworkable (and beyond that, if it is morally repugnant), then it isn't a real solution. The navitism on this forum needs to be replaced by a pragmatic, solution-seeking approach. If this happens, it will give Unity08 a chance to succeed - but it will infuriate many of the existing delegates. The Unity08 leadership has to decide if that option is palatable.
And just to make sure that I really get in trouble, I will say that this is a telling indicator of the core problem facing Unity08. When an organization relies on populist doctrine to determine the character of the movement, then the decisions are a direct reflection of the membership.
The problem with populism in this case is that it skews the argument when it is applied to an organization with a limited membership. That is the nature of this problem; the objectives of Unity08 are out of sync with the dialogue on the forum. Populism is geared toward the big demographic - and this is what scares moderates; they see the Unity08 agenda being hijacked by extremism, because the small existing membership is skewed against many of the stated values of Unity08.
Moderates see an organization with an identity crisis; there are two faces to Unity08, and the radical, navitist face is running the show while the moderate face is silent.
The navitist stance taken by the existing delegates is one of the major limiting factors for Unity08's growth projections. When nobody takes a stand from inside the organization on key issues like immigration, the forum then becomes the sole voice of the movement, and if anyone in the leadership at Unity08 is appalled at having the organization characterized as a "Navitist" organization, then they should speak up - because the members are speaking for you on this issue while the leadership avoids the fight.
It is important to remember that Sam Waterston's objective is really limited to getting people to look at the website; he sells them on the concept, and the website is supposed to close the deal. When potential members read the Shoutbox, they see nothing that reminds them of Sam's words; they see a pervasive pattern of extremist dialogue, punctuated by the typical ranting of a fringe third party.
At some point, a moderate organization has to stand for moderate principals; in politics, you either define yourself to the world, or others define you in a way that is consistent with their agenda.
Jeff C leikec@yahoo.com
What are you prepared to do - to secure the border, and end illegal immigration? How should we deal with the illegals who are established here?
Let's assume that there are 12 million illegal immigrants in the United States right now. There are only so many options to consider, when we decide how to proceed:
We can deport them en-masse...
We can detain them en-masse...
We can work out some sort of amnesty/path to citizenship...
We can look the other way, and leave the situation as it is...
Or we can combine some elements of all of the above...
To me, the first two options are unthinkable. The last two options are not solutions, so the only option is to find a way to give illegals a path to citizenship.
If you disagree, then what do you think we should do?
The navitist element on this forum wants to talk tough about mass deportation and internment camps for illegal immigrants, but have any of you considered the implications of this? Tell me why these tactics should be justified. Tell me how we can lecture other countries on human rights if we employ these methods. Tell me how this isn't persecution. If you believe in these tactics, then I am calling you out - as civily as possible.
Tom Tancredo tried very hard to differentiate his policy on illegal immigration from navitism (and racisim) today on "This Week". To me, he was dancing around on the head of a pin; the sad fact is that navitism usually leads to racism. And I reject any argument that frames racisim as good policy.
Tancredo said that he wouldn't consider any form of amnesty - but as usual, he never spelled out how he would deal with those 12 million illegal immigants; as a politician, he knows that the American people would recoil away from the human-rights horror that is mass deportation and interment camps. So Tancredo will talk tough on immigration, and he will throw out little chunks of red meat for the base, but he won't spell out the methodology of his "solution". That sort of dialogue is the dialogue of a charlatan.
This sort of talk is doing our nation a disservice; if you believe that we need solutions instead of rhetoric, then we should confine the conversation to ideas that we are prepared to implement.
I have to disagree with you on the content of the Shoutbox to some degree. The things i hear people complaining about on the shoutbox are the same issues i hear in discussions in my local community. Things have changed drasticly in the last 20 years of what i see as a one party system. Face it the public turned on George Bush after they "read his lips" and elected Bill Clinton, who even though he "did not have sex with that woman" prior scandals upset the voting public enough that they voted in the "Contract on America" gang, which by the way was the gov't that passed NAFTA. While i personally believe Al Gore won the election if so many Dems had not been so put off with the Clintons, and so many Republicans motivated against him by the wholesale scandals Gore would have probably won by a landslide. So we end up with GWB II and the neo-cons,(who won a second term in Ohio aided by Diebold and Kerry taking a fall in the 14th round) a prisidency and an economy saved by 911 and a feeling sweeping the country of being an American and not a Democrat or a Republican. We were attacked by someone because they "hated our freedom", so the neo-cons started taking our freedoms away, i guess so whoever attacked us would not do it again. The Democrats decried what the neo-cons were doing but did not have the numbers to do anything about it, then they got the numbers but did not have the stomach.(something called AIPAC upset their stomachs i heard). There is now a feeling of disgust in the country, left and right disgusted with their own parties and with good reason. When 80% of the politicians vote the way 80% of their constituents do not want them to you get what we have now, disgust. Make no mistake the last election was powerful as people rolled out to vote out incumbents and they will vote out a lot more this time, Democrat and Republican. There is a freight train coming down the track and that is no place for moderation. From what i have seen Mike Gravel was the people's pick in the SC Democrat debate and according to an msnbc poll Ron Paul blew away the field in last night's debate. Neither of these men are moderates and both debates had plenty of moderates. They say the wheels of justice grind slow but they grind fine. Given the last three administrations people are ready for a "third party fringe" candidate as anything would beat the rot and decay of the nation and our political parties caused by twenty plus years of Bush and Clinton abuses, scandals, lies, deceptions, wars and the highest of high crimes and misdemeanors.
Geez RP, here I thought I was a little perturbed at the current state of affairs in the country.
I will say at least you were pretty even handed, although I for one don't like Al Gore much.
It's the whole reason for the bipartisan ticket - to get candidates who will work across party lines with each other.
Whether you or I think it is right, Unity08 is designed to be a moderate alternative; it is positioned right in between the two major parties.
I read the post several times, and do not see there was likening of drugs to illegal immigrants. The point (my interpretation) was that demand for illegal immigrant labor is like the demand for drugs - insatiable, and against the law. Cut off the job demand and the incetive to enter illegally goes away. Sorry to chime in, I've seen uncivil posts (probably a few of mine are), but this isn't one of them.
We now return you to rgular progamming.
US Marine vet Vietnam 4/68 - 8/69
I agree that the message above did not compare people to drugs in a derogatory sense. There is no use in a widely vascillating moderation, no moderation to over moderation.
What I have seen work on lists before are simple rules of ettiquete being enforced. Without rules though the moderator is stuck using their own sense of correctness which is not good, or even supportable, either.
We should draw up some clear guidelines for this. If I over-reacted here, I'll take the blame. But I'm trying to encourage everyone to think about the way you make your arguments here. I hope we can begin to set an example for the kind of national political conversation we'd like our eventual candidates to have with the country as a whole.
No blame, no over-reaction. You read it one way, I read it another. Glad to see you active. I think at times I've deserved a slap, but it seemed the Wild West and if I was being shot at.....
Your listening alone indicates you have the right frame of mind - no complaints whatsoever from my point of view.
I have had a simple way to handle immigration, welfare and other social issues for a long time now, we just need to vote it in to law and watch what happens. Have both houses pass a bill that would let every American tax payer mark a box next to the social issues on our state and federal tax forms, that states, if you support this issue put an X in the yes box. If you support the issue the first step is to have your state calculate all those who marked yes, take the total cost of the program and divide it equally among all supporters. Now the Federal government will do the same step. I would bet my pay check, most Americans would mark NO, your not taking that much out of my income to support some one else problem. This will never happen, but it should.
The bottom line here is that "illegal immigrants" have entered our sovereign lands by breaking our laws. That alone makes them criminals! They do not have a right to cross our borders illegally, no matter how desperate their situations may be, or how noble their intentions may be. Many have said they are honest, hard working people, but the truth is they stopped being honest when they crossed our border illegally. If someone entered your home or property without permission and claimed they had every right to be there, you might look at this a little differently.
We are not responsible for the lack of employment opportunities in their countries or the corrupt nature of their governments. They have disrespected and destroyed their own lands and economies and now they want to do the same here. They have already demonstrated their disrespect and disdain for the United States and its citizens.
They come here, NOT with the expectation of becoming productive, patriotic citzens, but with demands for all the medical and social benefits of citizenship, including free education for their children (in their home language), without any form of allegiance or gratitude. Their goal is to use our resources, at our taxpayers expense to enrich their lives and the lives of family members still in their homeland, where their allegiance remains.
They want all the benefits of citizenship and the rights guaranteed by our Constitution for nothing! NO allegiance, NO patriotism, and NO cost to them. No reasonable American Patriot can think this kind of activity is ok.
Because our government has chosen not to enforce our laws or perform their Constututional duty to protect the sovereignty of our nation for so long, we find ouselves in an untenable situation. There is no simple solution to this problem of illegal immigrants on our soil, but doing nothing will only make it worse. We have the capability to secure our borders, and that's where the efforts should be concentrated right now. Working on a solution to those already here is much more complex, but it's not an excuse for doing nothing. This too, ought to be dealt with in a fair and timely manner. At this point the wounds are too deep for a band-aid and it's time a real solution is applied.
I just came back from five days of walking the halls of congress looking for a leader, a statesman or stateswoman who would rise above the politicaly correct crowd and represent the 81% of Americans who are against granting amnesty to 12-20 million illegals who break into my house and then hand me the bill. Sadly I and the other 1500 fed up ordinary citizens representing nothing other than our common sense never found that brave voice. What we did hear from our non-representative congressmen was this expediency over principle argument: "Look, we can't round up 12 million people and bus them back across the border. It would cost more to do that than allow them to stay,pass a few security checks, pay a fine and win citizenship." Our retort was always the same: "In other words,our congress is poised to grant amnesty and send the message to the rest of the world if you overcome us with numbers,take advantage of our charity, undercut the wages of legal American citizens then we will bend or erase our rule of law to give you what you broke our law in the first place to get." Folks, a few days of citizen lobbying does not make me a qualified pundit on the mechanization of our representatives but all of us saw the majority of our politicos on the hill are definitely in the grips of transforming our nation into some kind of global multiculturist society that will forever destroy the strength of our one unifying culture,one unifying language, one unifying un-hyphenated reality> we're all Americans ! If the silent, sleeping majority doesn't do more than exchange their mutual disgust through emails over this insanity ,and get active badgering these fuzzy-brained one-worlders by making your voices heard loudly and often, we will lose our nationhood.Don't take my word. Go to Washington and listen for yourselves and see if you don't start mumbling," Doesn't anybody speak for me around here ?" I can give you the names of 1500 moms and pops, grandmas and grandpas who are still in shock from the answer they found.
Many individuals assume that immigrants work out there as laborers breaking their backs building your houses, cooking your food, plowing your fields, etc for low wages. More disturbing is the new trend that these illegals are actually starting their own buisnesses (construction/day trade/cleaning companies/gardening services,etc) as subcontracters (easy to set up) and underbid legit companies and take business away from those who actually follow the law and pay taxes, workmans comp, and insurance.
They are not only able to start thier own businesses without having to comply with all the laws,taxes and insurance required and expected of legal Americans, but have an inexhaustable supply of more desperate souls willing risk thier lives to get here to work for beans. These illegal business owners exploit these illegals in ways that take american business practices back a hundred years. They remind me of the old work camps where your wages are ten dollars a month. Your rent is five dollars a month. Your meals are ten cent per meal. Firewood a dollar a month. I think you get idea. This is not an exageration I've seen it. Just visit your local latino villages and see how many vehicles are in the driveways. I'll stop here and say this, this is totally unfair. This unfair advantage given to illegals is in my opinion going to bite us all in the kester one day and by then it may really be to late.
Thought this Mallaby article informs the debate a tad on the immigration cost-benefit question:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/29/AR2007042901322.html
some excerpts:
"People accuse immigrants of gang violence, drunken driving and a general contempt for the law. But in 2024 the incarceration rate for immigrants was just one-fifth the rate for the population as a whole, according to Kristin Butcher of the Federal Reserve and Anne Morrison Piehl of Rutgers University.
People say immigrants are feckless and lazy. But in California in 2024, 94 percent of undocumented men ages 18 to 64 were in the workforce, compared with 82 percent of native-born men. Far from being part of a shiftless underclass, the act of coming to the United States makes immigrants among the most upwardly mobile groups in the nation, only a bit behind hedge-fund managers.
...Between a quarter and two-fifths of undocumented workers originally enter legally, so stringent border enforcement could only affect about two-thirds of new arrivals. Moreover, arrivals are only part of the issue; the alleged downward pressure on wages comes less from the 400,000 illegal immigrants who show up each year than from the 35 million immigrants already here, two-thirds of them legally. And migrants will continue coming even if the entire southern border is walled off. Europe has a wall called the Mediterranean. It still has illegal immigrants."
"People say, contrariwise, that immigrants steal jobs from native-born Americans. But economists have patiently explained for years that there is no finite "lump of labor" in an economy. The presence of migrants causes new jobs to be created: Factories that might have gone abroad spring up in Arizona or Texas. Hasn't anyone noticed that California, where fully one-third of the adult population is foreign born, has an unemployment rate of less than 5 percent?"
http://milligansstew.blogspot.com
We are a nation of laws...not of men. Enforce the laws!
i can not believe how simple it is to get a somewhat accurate count of the illegal aliens incountry. these politians are giving away the benefits men has died to get, like the 55,000 in vietnam and now the 3,335 in iraq. congress shall make no law that is potential illegal for illegals. and to a unknown number only show how ridiculous the kennedy - mc cain bill gets, giving benefits to illegal aliens, unknown quanity, and to get a headcount is so easy. just offer the possibility of becoming legal by signing up they will be comming out of the woodwork, the legit ones, not al quaeda or the drug dealers. just by offering to become legal is all necessary.
Why doesn't a anti illegal alien group challenge this interpretation of the 14th Amendment? This is the "loop hole" in our immigration laws. Read "When did the United States Adopt Jus Solis?, @ The Federalist Blog. Anchor babies. Jus Sanguinis. Look it up. OUR FOUNDING FATHERS WERE NOT STUPID. dao
Challenge as in bring a case or as in challenge it rhetorically in the public sphere?
"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907
The Teddy Roosevelt quote expresses my opinion perfectly.
Another TR quote is "Do what you can with what you have where you are."
I agree we need to embed programs (public/private)to train/educate in English the ones that are here and really want to be here and ferret out the bad elements. But lots of peoples have come here in the past and it has taken 1 or 2 generations to assimilate and learn the language and they became excellent contributing citizens. The Mexicans's are no different. It's a long term educative process. I say get, in some way. ALL the illegals above ground on the path to 1) citizenry/English for those who truly want that and 2) delineate those who just want to stay temporarily and fill a labor need but who have no intention of wanting to become worthy citizens, and 3) ferret out the criminal elements. I think you'll find most of the illegals are in that first category if given the chance just like the immigrants that came before 100 or so years ago.
Why do we reward illegal immigrants with any kind of employment! Why don't we monitor the employment records of employers and slap a hefty fine on any employer who pays any illegal immigrant and deport the illegal immigrants. If we dry up the job market for illegal immigrants, that should dry up the desire for illegal immigrants to be here!!
i can tell you never owned a business. the federal requirements on the I-9 form do not require employers to determine if they are legal or illegal. they only require that they provide documents of which a fake drivers license and a fake social security card is sufficient. employers cannot tell if they are legal or illegal. in 15 years of filling out I-9 forms i've never had a hispanic give me a green card. you are quite right in one respect, but if you take their jobs away who is going to cut your grass, build your homes, and cook your food. with record low unemployment, i don't see alot of white anglos or any other color americans coming into my restaurant and filling our apps for cook and dishwasher jobs. don't complain about illegals with a mouth full of restaurant food. you better take another realistic look at this one.
