I, too, have seen a complete lack of both work ethic and problem-solving skills in the majority of my students. My class requires that students immediately apply math, science, English, and foreign languages. However, I find that my younger students need to be led by the nose for longer periods of time before they are weaned and can begin to think on their own. I agree that the constant barrage of media that children receive from early infancy is a major contributing factor to this problem. Parents with the best of intentions truly believe that "edutainment" will teach their children. However, human interaction is a necessary, and often missing, component of development.

The lack of work-ethic is disturbing, but should not be surprising given the "instant gratification" students are used to in this high-tech world. Ironically, this is what will leave them behind.

Congrats to anyone who has not completed a formal education and is happy with his or her work. You are not in the majority. My brother just took a job for $20K less than he would have been offered if he held a bachelor's degree...same work, different pay. Is that right? No, but it's often a litmus test that employers use, and that's a real-world application.

I do not disagree with you that all parties are at fault for the failings in education. My High Horse comment was meant to say not all kids are lazy. I was fortunate in that our pastor believed in providing affordable tuition for a private school, and that enabled my parents to pay for me to go there. Now I was never an A or B student and I was the least likely to be choosen to go there but they gave me a chance, and it changed me a great deal. While I attended Public School I was routinely beaten up by a gang of heavy set girls, I complained about this to no avail and still nothing was done.
All I am saying is like anything else in life one needs motivation and when I can drop out of high school and not pay an economic price up front than the value of the education is not apparent to me. I thought about teaching but I couldn't get funding for the 7 years it would take to get the additional degree.

David,
I think you will find that the reason our youth do not have problem solving capabilities nor curiousity is attributed PBS and Seasame Street. Watching inane cartoons and multi-culturals play nicey-nicey is a poor substitute for real life experiences that 3-8 year olds would normally be engaged in.

I wholeheartedly agree that science is a process and needs to be taught that way. As a science teacher, I try to emphasize process over facts but, due to the nature of the beast, facts are a necessary evil. Every year I find myself "cutting out" factual information in my class to bring in more process and more in-class practice of the process.

The problem that I've witnessed is that my kids (I teach high school) a) have no work ethic (as I've stated in an earlier post) and b) are completely lost when you ask them to problem solve. Why is that? I believe that it's because we live in a point-and-click society. All they have to do is click the remote or the mouse and they can find what it is they think they need.

And, for the record, I am not on my "high horse." My point is that our educational woes are not due solely because of teachers as some folks have pointed out on here - they are the result of failure on many levels. If we continue to just blame one group instead of overhauling the system as a whole then we are doomed to more mediocrity.

I actually have no problem with H1B visas for this simple fact it is cheaper to employ them overseas then here so the more the merrier. I think the real issue is the cost of Education see my comments
http://unity08.com/node/46#comment-5183 sorry do not know how to make a link but I can also see your point I had to take a course called Population Geography(Enviornmental Extremeism would be a more appropriate title) it has nothing to do with Logistics my new career. I think you are right we do need to have diverse thoughts one of the complaints made to me by an associate was kids are taught facts but not the processes that lead to those facts from both the liberal and conservative viewpoints and let them decide which is right. Here is an example Stagflation, defined as High Inflation and zero or negative growth. Conservative Arguement is that the government while spending to stimulate the economy was also simultaneously constraining growth best analogy picture a horse with one hand feeding and the other holding the mouth shut. the liberal interpretation is ? I don't have one if someone does have one please point it out and let them decide who is right? both Hypothesis might be valid but without knowing the process or the criteria you will keep making the same mistakes. As for the MultiCultural arguement I went to a parochial Catholic School and we were taught about those very things I see nothing wrong with it as I grew up in what would be called a lily white city outside of Detroit and having to deal with other races when not interacting with them on a daily basis was a struggle in college. I see a place of teaching diversity both ethnic and conscience but it should not be front and center.
I disagree about the statements about colleges if we were not we would not have a backlog of foreign students trying to get in, as for not winning at the hard science name who is? please define hard sciences?, who did we lose our leadership to? and how did providing extra incentives to the disadvantaged cause our decline?

re: to JimD comment
eksglobal on July 22, 2024 - 5:09pm

The demise of American technology, the pearl of our culture, WAS caused by attempts to fix previous wrongs even if by the laws of unintended consequences.

100's of billions of dollars was diverted from science to multiculturalism, women studies, race relations, the training of civil rights and trial lawyers.

Rising to your level of incompetence was what was known as "The Peter Principal", taken from a book of the same name in the 70's. Correction: We were the envy of the world in education, but that's only limited to a few disciplines today. It fell under the siege of affirmative action. In most of the hard sciences, we fail. On the incentive thing, you are correct. Who wants to invest $100K in a computer science degree for example, if our government allows 100,000's H1B visas from India or elsewhere at salaries only a fraction of what is equivalent. Who wants to spend 20 years studing medicine and have a trial lawyer destroy your reputation for greed. But these are not all business or even republican interests, they are democratic too under the umbrella of diversity.

Diversity of thought is a good thing. But it must be exposed to the market forces of ideas and not Political Correctness influences. Different cultures have different values. Some values should be praised and some are in the gutter. That's where discrimination comes in.

I agree we are failing in technology not becuase of attempts to fix previous wrongs. But because employers want things on the cheap. my professor in Hospitality Supervision (Leadership) said it best "You rise to your level of incompetance" We are in Higher Ed the envy of the world and we are accused of causing brain drain from them. Part of it is the pay and the other is the status I mean look at who gets coverage in say Time it isn't the scientist with some breaktrhough it is the businessperson. I mean Steven Jobs is best known for apple but it was actually built by Steve Wasneyak(Sp) who we have never heard hide nor hair from, Bill Gates is the head or was of Microsoft he had a partner named Allen have you seen hime lately. If we do not create an incentive to go into those fields then no one will.
we have tons of lawyers, communications professionals, and finance majors but we have few technicians who can fix most of the appliances we depend on every day and the system encourages the shortest route!!!
My final comment is this we live in a diverse world where we will confront people from different backgrounds and being exposed to those backgrounds early will be essencial if we are to stop the polarization.

RE:The American Education Problem = Lack of a Work Ethic
eksglobal on July 21, 2024 - 5:48pm

Exactly eksglobal. Furthermore, if an affirmative action, diversity oriented teacher who nurtures students in multi-culturalism gets paid the same as a BS degreed teacher in physics, chemistry, math, history to instruct in the hard arts and sciences. Why would they bother. You get what you pay for and that's why we are failing in technology.

A teacher at that... our children know by instinct that getting on a cattle bus and standing heel to toe all day is not right... they should be flying into the halls of congress and talking to Jefferson himself! Not spending their days in a outdated institution... www.appyp.com/fix_main.html

I know what you mean, I have seen some students that slack off. But can we blame them? I mean come off your high horse if I pay one person without a diploma the same I pay someone with a diploma. What is the point of a diploma?

People piss and moan about teachers and teacher unions but, as a teacher, I see first hand the real problem facing American Education - American students lack a work ethic.
The largest impediment to the success of my students is their lack of active participation in their education. They are seldom prepared for class and complete their homework roughly 50% of the time. Instead of seeing the value of hard work they believe that they are entitled to "the good life" without having to work for it.
Living in a rural area of northern NY state, most of my students come from low- to middle-income families. Most studies equate their lack of success to their lower SES. I know that this fact contributes to their lack of success but most of these families try their best to "keep up with the Joneses" - having an ATV and/or snowmobile, iPods, a computer with Internet access, as well as other creature comforts. Do I begrudge them these items? No, not at all but these students don't see any value in doing schoolwork because they have all of these items. They don't see any immediate benefit to learning so they don't see any need to learn. Parents give lip service to the importance of education but the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
I'm not surprised that America keeps falling behind academically but unless ALL parties own up to their responsibility in this issue then we truly are doomed. It's easy to point the finger but harder to work to find a solution.

I for one love various shows about history, about arts, about anything. But when it comes to getting a paycheck all learning is rubbish. If you want to increase the value of learning it has to have positive economic consequence or at least avoid negative ones. Today a fast talking salesperson can make as much as a college professor. I mean look at the media we have a high school drop out who landed a gig on a reality show about modeling who will have money without putting in the effort if such exceptional cases aren't pointed out then we doom everyone to trying to get the 15 minutes of fame and trying to stretch it.

I think we need to start first overhauling the accrediation system Because A) it has went from creating a set of standards to being an employment program for professors and professional educators and it needs to stop.
B) We need strict deadlines and performance reviews that are independant You fail in three years your funding goes bye and we farm the kids out to the local school districts that are meeting the objectives if not exceeding them. I say 3 years about it.
C)All College or Vocational Training must come with a mandatory internship paid or unpaid but it must be required to graduate.
D) and finally only those maintaining a 3.5 in their major are allowed to graduate failure after a year results in expulsion for Five years before readmission is considered ( it took me that long to figure out I screwed up)
And that will fix the system.

It seemed like you were seeking information on the California 2024 Governor's race and not presidential 2024. You probably already have what a Google search might come up with like:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_gubernatorial_election,_2006
http://www.smartvoter.org/2006/06/06/ca/state/vote/noonan_ec/
As for 2024 other Shoutboxes have various names and links.

I thought this post was to discuss educating the electorate about the issues? Other than the league of Women Voters and long newspaper articles and neither is really very efficient or informative --- is there a trusted source out there?

I moved to California a year ago and just voted here for the first time in June. I'm pretty well read and had been reading most of the articles about Proposition 82 --- but I'd been tuning out on the attack ads from the 2 leading democratic candidates for governor. A few days before the election, I needed to make a decision. I think most people, even those who care passionately about politics -- find it difficult to make an informed choice for every candidate and issue.

For example, I didn't really like either of the 2 leading Democratic candidates for governor --- but couldn't get any information about the 4 other candidates. Maybe Unity '08 could create a clearinghouse for this kind of information...a la Wikipedia with "editors" who fact check & monitor that the posts are valid? It would be a vast undertaking but if it was handled responsibly could become a trusted source.

A scholar is one who takes on $70,000 in college loans and conveniently forgets that they have to be paid back.. until the month he/she graduates and gets the first bill.. that's when the real learning starts.

Bravo, Diane! To quote a professor of mine, "Who in their right mind wants to be a scholar in this country?" and she was speaking a good 15 years ago.

Think about it for a minute. One of the stock character plots in our culture is the "evil scientist" versus the "simple, pure-hearted hero". People who disappear into university to study problems, and then come out with answers that may not be popular, but _are_ backed up with data, are derided as "ivory-tower intellectuals" who "don't know anything about the real world."

And we're surprised our kids can tell us about Paris Hilton's hair-do, but not who Marie Curie was?

Diane is absolutely right. As parents, we need to educate our kids about the world they live in, every day. Schools can't do it all. And to educate the kids, we need to be educated ourselves.

(gg)And for those who simply cannot live without ESPN, learn to figure out those stats, instead of waiting for someone to announce them! (There's a challenge.)

I just retired from teaching at the middle school level for almost 20 years. I've read the topics and comments on education posted here and must chime in.

Education in this country will not improve until learning becomes important to STUDENTS. Right now it scores way below sports, shopping, video games, skateboarding, cellphones and all those other distractions offered by our fast, wired world. Students who don't see value in learning because their parents don't make it a priority are the ones falling behind. Most all parents check report cards, complain when there's a problem with their kid, help with homework, go to activities and all those other day-to-day things, and that's great, but that's not education. Parents need to instill a love of learning in their kids by turning off the TV and reading books, newspapers and magazines. They need to discuss current events with their kids constantly. They need to learn a new skill or take a class. They must demonstrate the importance of learning for their kids in order for kids to value it. Those parents who do these things now have kids that are doing fine. Those who are more concerned with the football team than with how much their kids understand about the world are causing their kids to learn that those other things are more important than learning.

Students are failing to connect learning with their place in the world because that's what their being taught by example.

This is certainly not a new probem. It has always been there. Its just that the effects of it are being magnified now since careers that don't need a good education are leaving the country. We haven't yet geared up our minds to accept that learning is the key to fixing a lot of the problems we face now. We all want to take the easy way out and blame techers or administrators or lack of money or any of the other things that have been offered up as ways to fix the education system.

The education SYSTEM isn't the problem. The problem is the lack of emphasis placed on learning and being educated in our society. Until that changes none of the other fixes offered will have much effect.

no matter what the problem, find the trouble at the bottom

"If we want people to participate in the democratic process..." or be able to make any responsible decision or choice, we need to change the way we educate them. But, all discussions of this type dwell on the same old things. It is time for real reform. Let's get away from "seat time". You know, kids have to be in school for a certain number of hours each year, and it varies by state. What the heck does that have to do with education. How many of you got bored out of your minds because you already knew what they were trying to teach you? Hey, we know exactly what we want students to know, and we know when they have mastered that content. So, why make them sit there and wait for the others to catch up? When they master a subject, let's move them on. If they finish High School in two years, so be it. Send them on to college. If it takes them six years, so be it. We will continue to teach them until they learn it.

Gregg G, I don't really disagree with you on the primary role of the education system, my post was more regarding the forum topic specifically and what roll/responsibility the education system has in increasing participation in the political process. I agree that we should be primarily focused on the basics, but I think those things can be taught in a way that promotes critical thinking, independent thought, and curiousity about the rest of the world and our place in it.

But this does touch on a related issue (maybe I should post this in a new topic, because it is drifting off this one): Two working parents, living far from extended family, diminshing active religious involvement, living in dispersed suburbs - where are kids to go for values and culture? the media and internet. Don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of having schools teach "values", but someone has to step into the vacuum and at least help kids think about how they can choose their values wisely - and give them motivation to actually choose their values, rather than take them as presented by the media and pop culture. Fine line, I know.

Maybe we need a new topic called "What is the role of the education system?"

I respectfully disagrees with you texo.

The role of the education system is this: specifically teach reading, writing and arithmetic and in general; it is the role of the educational system to prepare kids for college.

We have had 70 years of “instilling critical thinking skills, passion and motivation to get involved.” I am glad to see some colleges are giving our kids the tools they need to succeed in the real world. It’s time to get back to the basics.

Testing: I get a sense of oppsotions when mandatory testing is preceded with the words "high stakes", as if this was some sort of big gamble. I would like to see review of these tests by some committess outside the education establishment who can take the tests themselves, see if the test is measuring the survival skills necessary to become a productive citizen in our country. There is nothing wrong with using tests to determine if someone has mastered a subject.

Empowerment: School districts are unequal. Even when the amount the state provides for each student is the same, results vary greatly. In part this occurs because at some schools the parents have the wherewithal and interest to donate money, time and materials. In part, because in some schools, the money is misspent. Audits of schools need to be strengthened, and these audits should focus on schools that are producing poor results. Parents that care will move to neighborhoods that provide the better educational opportunities, where the school works harder to educate. My son goes to a charter school. He was on a waiting list for a year, and only got in because somebody moved away. When the time came around this year to get one's child on the waiting list for enrollment, there were people camped in the school parking lot in 100 degree heat for THREE DAYS AND NIGHTS. Many parents are desperate to secure a better education for their children. An increasing number are abandoing the public school system and homeschooling their children. Of course, there are many parents that are complacent and indifferent. The system must work for their children too. Anything that improves our children's education should be considered. If some areas want to experiment with vouchers, they should be allowed to do so.

school boards with religious/political agendas: some schoolboards have fallen under control of a minority that wishes to impose its views on the majority. Most media coverage involves the teaching of evolution; fundamentalist religious groups have a strong anti-science bent. This has been going on for many centuries. Galileo was persecuted by the Catholic church for daring to suggest the earth is not at the center of the solar system. Many of the radical Islamic fundamentalists come from religious schools; I see both these as schools for teaching intolerance, of science, of dissenting beliefs, of freedom of choice. This is a great threat to a tolerant and civil society. The same would be true if a school board were taken over by Communist idealogues, so it is not a religious issue per se. It is rather the teaching of dogma rather than truth. Believing the earth is flat does not make it so. Creationism (and "Intelligent Design") belongs in Sunday school, not in a science class. They should lengthen the hours of public school and Sunday school too. But I should decide what Sunday school my child goes to, not them.

The Educational Establishment: Somehow, it is not their fault, things are going to get better, are getting better, after your child leaves school, sorry, things will be right. This song has been sung for decades. The educational establishment needs to do a lot more soul searching and a lot less politicking, because their credibility is gone. I don't believe anything they say, any of the excuses they make. I think we need start a program of sending some teachers to classrooms in other countries that more successfully educate their children and then have them come back and tell everyone what they learned, and write it on the blackboard a few times.

Respectfully Submitted,

Sketch

I agree with tolas that the problem with participation in the political process is not a lack of education. People generally have sufficient basic skills to understand the issues if they are willing to invest the time and effort. People either do not care, or do not feel that their voice matters, or something else, or some combination of all of these. The role for the education system to play here is in trying to instill critical thinking skills, passion and motivation to get involved. College campuses used to be hotbeds of involvement and activism along all points of the social/political spectrum. Now they are largely focused on getting the right resume dressing to score that choice summer internship with an investment bank.

Education ... a self enclosed spiral largely serving to promote security among the educators. Unfortunatly we have fantasy based education with little or no practical application and little reality based education. We have a generation of people out prancing around with various pedigrees and associated loans that have nowhere to go. Address that first.
We dont need to perpetuate the myth that we lack the resources to educate ourselves. Its there and if you exclude the recent cuts in student loan funding the money is too. But who needs more debt. Start your kid out tommorow into a dead end field and as a kicker have them sign away their next 20 years of disposable income?
What we need is to direct this education into areas where it is actually needed.
In this regard our system seems most lacking in common sense and lettuce pickers.

There are already two topics here being discussed as one.
Educate people about issues and the process or educate them how to add and subtract.
There already is a confusion in the response you are getting.

I'm with tolas--we need to talk about the risks of losing our place in the world as the home of most scientific innovation.

The rules of education have changed. No matter how much the "traditionals" fight reform we must "in order to compete" we must move swiftly to provide each student with a "modem only" computer that is part of a wireless lan network to their local school. A computer costing $20 because it does not have a hard drive or files. It uses software and files stored on the school server... now run with me! Each student has different learning skills so his/her computer will take advantage of the students strengths to speed up the time it takes to teach a student... Teachers will gradually be able to teach more students and the computers learn to answer student questions, which is very possible because teaching involved specific questions regarding a particular subject... Converting the institutional based education structure to a video conferencing based system... burn down the schoolhouse and college campus and make higher education absolutely FREE! Pay teachers 3 times as much! And park the stupid schoolbus... start physical education, sports, and the arts again! It will be fun! for more www.appyp.com/fix_main.html

While spending resources to educate people is extremely important, I don't think we should overlook the potential for an individual to educate themselves about these topics. With the advent and growth of the internet as an information medium, everything is there for a person to become self informed.

All we really need to do is get people to start thinking for themselves, get interested in a topic, and stop listening to the politicians who focus on the polarizing viewpoints of every issue.

As this is the Education forum however, I think we should address the topics of evolving our Education System, and the issue of America loosing creative, scientific, and technological grounds to other countries.