Last week I wrote about how astonished I was to move from madly multicultural New York to North Carolina and see, close up, the "immigration problem" that Lou Dobbs and a lot of Republican Congressmen have been yammering about, and that hundreds of thousands of Latinos and their supporters marched about this past April. (I’d gotten a preview then, when my Chicago-native parents quit going to their favorite Florida fish store forever because its owner fired the employees who took the day off for the march. The fish-store restaurant’s local patrons, by contrast, stood up and cheered.) North Carolina, with a population of less than nine million, has a largely separate enclave of close to a million Mexicans. I’ve seen one estimate that half of them are illegal. I’m too new here to know if that’s exaggerated or not. But I do know what I’m seeing: a de facto uninvited-guest worker program that has become a vital, yet diseased, organ of the state’s economy without becoming part of its society.
North Carolina has become a virtually bilingual state, not out of the goodness of someone’s bleeding heart, but because it’s good business. A recent University of North Carolina study shows that Hispanics contribute to the state’s economy not only as low-wage laborers but as consumers; in 2024, their spending packed a $9.2 billion wallop. By contrast, the same study shows, they "[cost] the state budget a net $102 per resident in health care, education, and correctional services". That balance sheet tilts against those who argue that the Hispanic community here is nothing but competition for local unskilled labor and a drain on law-abiding taxpayers . . . although, wait a minute, that casually tossed-off “correctional services” is disturbing. Since when is jail a population’s number-three normal need? That bespeaks not only poverty, but alienation – the complete lack of a stake in the surrounding community. A ghetto becomes a pressure cooker of crime, violence and addiction insofar as there’s perceived to be no way out of it. For an illegal alien who doesn’t speak English, that’s not just a self-defeating perception, that’s reality.
Liberals blame conservatives for hypocritically exploiting Hispanics’ cheap labor without really accepting them. Their solution is amnesty, which would allow illegals to let down their guard and enter American society — at the high cost of redoubled contempt for the border and a "Groundhog Day" replay of the problem. Conservatives blame liberals for siding with the forces that resent America’s Anglo-Saxon backbone and seek to parcel the country out in reparations to a Balkans of former victims. Their solution is to try to build a literal dike to hold back the global ocean — a world that wants to throw its arms around the American experiment and love it to death.
Until I came to North Carolina, I thought that President Bush – actually a moderate on this issue, maybe because of the Hispanics in his family – had hit on the sensible centrist solution: tighten up the border, but face the fact that people want to come here to work and businesses want their labor, and create a guest worker program. But now that I’m here, I see that a guest worker program is, in effect, what we’ve already got. Legitimizing it would solve the legal and economic problems, but it might make the social one even worse: a large group of people living self-contained and apart, with no real stake in America, neither being transformed by the place nor transforming it, because they’re only here to make money so they can get out of poverty at home.
And that’s just not how we do things. In the history of American immigration, money isn’t everything. Rather, economic and cultural transactions have been hopelessly intertwined. Money can hardly build a bridge before music, food, slang and sex are sneaking or stampeding across it. Back in the 1950s, when my friend Chato and his family swam the Rio Grande, we were two-faced about this two-way street. Officially, we demanded a kind of cultural loyalty oath from new immigrants: the price of admission was to forsake their former language and customs and act as white-bread as they possibly could. And all the while, white-bread Americans were crossing the river or the tracks on Saturday nights to learn how to be less so. Repressed ethnicity returned with a vengeance through the back doors of entertainment and crime.
Today, a majority of us are more confident of the robustness of American identity. We now invite newcomers to bring their differences right in the front door and contribute them to the American repertory. And the way to do that is to give us your heart. Whatever else you are, aspire to be an American. (Yes, I know that Latinos are already “Americans.” I’m using the word in the politically-incorrect sense that’s recognized worldwide.) Hunger to get the fast food of English into your mouth. Love the idea of America – its unparalleled freedom and opportunity and informality and directness and interchange. Want to join us. Don’t be a stranger. That’s the earnest we want from you. (Does anyone remember Paul Mazursky’s underrated ‘80s movie "Moscow on the Hudson"? It was an unapologetically sentimental tribute to this idea.)
A guest-worker arrangement, legal or illegal, is, by contrast, only a pact for mutual exploitation, in which nothing but money is exchanged and no one is changed. The United States, as work site and money tree, becomes the enabler of its neighbors’ dysfunctional economies, uprooting people who would rather make a good living at home and who will live here in a consolatory bubble of home, a foreign body that provokes rejection. I’d like to see an immigration program that trades legal cheap labor for a real chance to become American. I’d like to see a basic English requirement for a labor visa — and a basic language requirement, with Spanish as the default, for entry into middle school. (It’s good for the brain.) I’d like to see both tough border enforcement and a challenging amnesty that is far from quick or easy. I’d like to see, and would willingly carry, an unforgeable ID card. What left and right proposals would you want to combine in a Unity immigration platform?
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I wish people would stop diluting the illegal immigration issue with folks that are here legally. I would like to use this sentence to show my point for the post: “That balance sheet tilts against those who argue that the Hispanic community here is nothing but competition for local unskilled labor and a drain on law-abiding taxpayers.”
No one that I know of; Republican, Democrat, Independent, Conservative, Liberal or Moderate is arguing that the Hispanic community is a burden on our country. I also don’t know anyone that’s for zero legal immigration. So why dose the Author of the post and many others diluted the illegal immigration issue with folks that have been born here or immigrated here legally?
I spent several hours reading the 41 page text (65 pages in total including 2 letters for Mexican Government Officials). That are used as an economic basis for the post. The study is completely bigoted. The title of the study is:“The Economic Impact of the Hispanic Population on the State of North Caroline” How about this title, “The Economic Impact of the African-American Population on the State of North Caroline”
Go University of North Carolina!!! Another well done study out of the “south” on minority folks. Boy I yearn for the “good ‘ol days”...
Look the truth is this. Most people are steaming mad about illegal immigration. The numbers as I was able to extrapolated from the study, as it pertains to the post are: Between 1994 and 2024, including the estimated population for 2024 shows a total of 357,940 illegal Hispanic immigrants; the estimated population of North Carolina is 8,584,471; the negative impact to the legal-tax-paying-residence of the State of North Carolina is $21,655,370.00 or $60.50 per illegal Hispanic immigrant.
Unfortunately the Author of the post used a bigoted, racially motivated study that belies the intent of the post and her reputation. I give her an “F” on the two part post because the back bone of the thesis on immigration and its impact, are flawed.
Ms. Ambivablog, please start over. You are a good and reasonable writer. I know you can do better. Here is a not to subtle hint. The argument [discussion] concerning immigration is “illegal immigration”.
I can already here a few folks complaining about me response to Ambivablog post. I expect a few of you think I missed the point of the post. The point of the post was not about “illegal’s” but how can the Hispanic culture can assimilate into the American with out losing there identity and dignity. The answer is only as old as the last century.
Here is a short story. My Moms side of the family came to America from Germany during the mid 1800's. The family were Pennsylvania- Dutch cole miners. The only two children that did not speak German were my Mom and Aunt. Every one else in the family spoke fluent German. However, that was at home. When any stepped out of the house they spoke English.
The point is this, if you are here legally then you already embody the American identity. You do not have to dump your, culture or national identity. If you chose to live in a closed community were you neither speak “English” or patron an “American” store. Good for you. But I’ll bet your kids do. And that is the story of my Pennsylvania- Dutch family. By WWII every kid had rolled their Pennsylvania- Dutch identity into a “uniquely” American Identity. That’s the diversity that has made our country great.
I think most folks have a story like that. I bet most Hispanic folks have a story like that. So don’t jump all over me for stating the obvious. No one cares where you are from. All are welcome. Just come here legally.
And yes, I have already posted my solutions regarding the immigration (both legal and illegal) issue long before Ms. Ambivablog asked.
Greg, of course legal and illegal immigration are two completely different things. And I know that there are legal immigrants who resent illegals because they bring everybody under unfair suspicion. Two points, though:
1) When I say "the Hispanic community here" I mean specifically "here in North Carolina." (And I don't claim to know a lot about it; I'm a newcomer myself. If I've got it wrong in some crucial way I would love it if somebody would tell me.)
2) Do you think that legal and illegal immigrants live apart from each other and avoid each other? On the contrary, they are from the same villages, perhaps sometimes the same families. They live inextricably, and it's a good guess that some if not many legal members of the community are helping and protecting illegals. And that would tend to make the whole community more inward and secretive. It's natural, especially for people who haven't been here very long: where would YOUR loyalties lie? To people who are just intent on coming here, the difference between legal and illegal probably doesn't loom very large, especially when legal immigration is quite difficult. Our making such a big fuss about legality likely seems unjust to many -- and hypocritical, too, when American businesses and individuals are so eager to hire them!
As long as this is the case -- and if a large percentage of NC's Mexican population is illegal, it is almost surely the case -- I think it's fair to talk about "the Hispanic community" and illegal immigration in the same breath, even while noting that there are many, many legal immigrants who have every right to be here.
We also shouldn't forget:
1) That we should support development of the Mexican economy such that people who want to stay there can make a decent living.
2) That if we want to cut down illegal immigration, we have to penalize the businesses that hire illegals -- and give them a way to hire the workers they need legally. (My objection to a guest worker program is precisely that it is a dead end, only a temporary way of coming here to earn money and then go home. And it would attract people whose faces are turned towards home. It keeps people separate.)
Finally, why didn't you post the URL of your writings on the subject? Please do. The whole point is to start a discussion. I want to hear more of what you have to say.
Let me address the latter first. I did not post my URL because I don’t keep the links. Second, my solutions are scattered within several different posts. I will, sometime this weekend go through the 70 or so post I’ve made and redact my thoughts and solutions into a one cohesive piece.
As for the former, let me address your concerns about the commingling of the Hispanic community and the impact to your state by highlighting the impact to my city. One thing is clear. North Carolina is not an isolated case. We here in California have dealt with this issue since the early 1980’s. Within the City of Los Angeles were I live 80% of the 750,000 school kids are Hispanic. The City past a 1 billon dollar school bond several years ago to build new schools. Don’t ask me were the funding is coming from to staff, run or maintain the schools. Most of them came on line just this new school year.
The City of Los Angeles official this month has no middle class. Okay that is if you go by housing prices and the increase in ones personal assets. So, by default of home ownership you are either rich or poor. Now the assumption is, White Anglos are the home owners and Minorities are not. If you assumed that… well you know the story. Many people that are cash poor own homes. This includes thousands of illegal aliens, including but not limited to; Nigerian, Mexican, Salvadorian, Guatemalan, Chinese, Colombian, Australian, Canadian, Israeli, Korean and on and on.
So how do I know this, I am a building inspector. My job is to enforce the building code not to enforce the immigration laws. I am a curios guy so many times I will ask my constituent where he or she is from. Because building code violations are misdemeanors, immigration status makes its way into the conversation. I treat all people regardless of status as citizens of the City of Los Angeles. When I issue a citation to a street vendor, that is fresh over the border, tiring to eke out an existence on the street, it’s for vending not immigration violations. Just like the restaurant owner, maintenance company, irrigation company, office building owner, hotel owner, carwash owner; we don’t care where you are from or what you do at home.
This is the point. It is the federal government’s job to enforce the borders and make immigration law. It is state and local government’s job to enforce to state and local law. If a bunch of people feel they have to shut them selves into a tight and discriminating community (obeying federal, state and local laws as it pertains to personal behavior), who am I to complain.
And do you know what? I won’t. Do you remember that my Mom’s side of the family is Pennsylvania-Dutch? Well during WWII many of them went to war in the European theater. And why was that, because some freaking, insane man with his little, impotent thugs in brown uniforms went around pitting neighbor against neighbor. I will not do that. If my neighbor (and they are), weather he is Mexican, Korean or Indian behaves badly, I will call the LAPD. Other than that, it is good morning, good evening or howdy.
That is the American way.
"Don't ask, don't tell" policy?
Your word "neighbor" is of the essence.
My idea for a platform will be intentionally short. I have always loved the brevity of the Bill of Rights. Then I’ll attempt to be a bit more specific concerning what I perceive as the three parts of immigration that we are all discussing: enforcement, implementation of incoming immigrants and how to make it fair for all current illegal aliens without a “nazi” style round-up.
I would propose to Unity08 that our immigration platform be a fair and equitable implementation for every human being on earth.
So here is the thinking behind my proposition. I don’t like the guest worker program. I never have and never will. It is not fair. Only the folks that live near the border are entitle to the program and it sends our economic resources back over the border. I don’t like the “K” visa program either. It dose not promote a sense of ownership in this country. It just sends the message that you are smart and will work here cheaply. I don’t like how immigration is generally implemented. It seems unfair that only people with money or something to “contribute” can apply. So many folks just come here uninvited because they feel, that is the only way. Also our enforcement policies send the message that if you can get inland one hundred miles or so you are free to stay forever.
As for the specifics, I would hope enforcement would encompass a fence running the entire length of the U.S. Mexican border and U.S. Canadian border. An illegal alien be punished by a misdemeanor. An employer that will fully and knowingly hires and illegal alien be punished by a misdemeanor.
I would like to see the social security card bifurcated. The use of the number would serve as the official work identification number with no ties to personal finances; also a computer data base for all work identification number for employers to check. A new number would be issued for all financial uses. No employer be punished for not being able to tell a real work identification number form a fake work identification number.
I would like to see the deportation of an illegal alien be back to his or her own country’s capital city.
The implementation of incoming immigrants should allow those already in the system, to immigrate to the United States, get the first opportunity.
I think a fair number of immigrants be Three tenths of one percent (currently equals one million people) of the population of the United States per year from anywhere in the world. The number of immigrants would be based on a ratio of a countries population to our quota (yes china gets the largest percentage of immigrants with India next and so on). Any country that did not fulfill its quota would lose that percentage of people to a lottery of all countries per year. The United States would take anyone regardless of education, class or health (remember those huddled masses). Those exclude would be violent felons.
When identifying entrenched illegal aliens, I would like to see all enforcement of illegal aliens be suspended for 5 years to allow for registration in an immigration program. All illegal aliens, when they register will go to the end of the waiting line behind those all ready in the system.
Finally there should be an appeals process for individual case such as those illegal aliens with anchor babies. And of course the thousands of other reasons people have for not feeling they should follow the laws of entry.
President Bush is a moderate on this issue because he is paid by his campaign contributors to be a moderate on the issue. Why else would he want to match willing workers with willing employers if that latter were not also very willing campaign contributors?
Any immigration bill that includes either amnesty or a guest worker/temporary worker program is neither sensible nor workable. We should have all learned from the 1986 amnesty and the guest worker programs of the past that both only lead to more illegal behaivor. We should also learn that illegal immigration and temporary worker programs depress wages, and burden our social services, including health care, education, and hospitals. Unity 08, if it really wants to be a voice of the people should start listening. Most Americans want the borders closed, English as a national language, and less not more immigration.
It is unconscionable that we have a third world nation right next door to 2 of the richest countries on earth. For the most part, Mexican (and South and Central Americans) are hardworking, god-fearing people who are caught up in a system they can't fix on their own. If Mexico erected a wall & refused to let them out, those who made it through would probably be treated like those who escaped East Germany during the days of the Berlin wall...treated like heros. I am not one to blame America for the faults of the world, but we are very heavy-handed in the region when pushing our agendas. Why is it, with NAFTA and CAFTA -- plans that were supposed to make the peasants lives better, the rich got richer & the poor, poorer? The laborers have almost no labor laws to protect them and are paid wages they cannot survive on. If you had been born on that side of the border, you would do the only thing these people can do to survive...get to America.
I understand all of the problems created by the illegals in our society and it's not fair to us (citizens), legal immigrants, or the illegals themselves, who are vilified for trying to survive. Amnesty didn't work in the 80's because there was never any follow-up on a plan to clarify & streamline immigration laws & to close the border from future abuses. I believe we need to work with the governments to our South to come up with workable solutions, including allowing more foreign investment from America & Canada, that will raise the income & quality of life for people in those countries. Many of them would be glad to stay in their countries with their families & friends if they could. We send billions of dollars to the hungry in Africa & all over the world, yet we turn a blind eye to these refugees of failed policies in their homeland. We need to progress to the point where North America is united like the European Union, with no need for fences; still our own individual countries, but with unified goals and a partnership for problem resolution and security for the continent.
Protect our children...end Prohibition!
Don't be fooled! 3 different issues for sure as the two heads try and combine these for legislative gridlock as the people are clear on each issue and the only way to stop reform is combining these issues! Mexican natives that have committed no other crime than undocumented work get amnesty along with a very high wall from coast to coast and positive identification or upgrade of our social security cards immediately so that the criminals and terrorists within can be arrested. Anything less is hogwash! - Earn Snyder
Author "$aving the bureaucracy - Killing the beast"
Modern Progressive Independent
www.appyp.com/fix_main.html
Imported slaves from Mexico! Not on my watch! Earn Snyder
Author "$aving the bureaucracy - Killing the beast"
Modern Progressive Independent
www.appyp.com/fix_main.html
The mexican people must revolt and demand their government surrender Mexico to the United States and become a state of the United States as it should have done years ago - as the Cuban people should do the same! As both drug infested nations are soft and have no friends that dare stop a peoples revolution in both nations! - Earn Snyder
Author "$aving the bureaucracy - Killing the beast"
Modern Progressive Independent
www.appyp.com/fix_main.html
First, this is my very first comment/post on Unity08.
I'd like to say it was a very well-written and well-crafted blog entry. I agree with some of the more moderate views posted thus far. As far as immigration is concerned, I tend to be a hard-liner against ILLEGAL immigration. There must be a stark distinction between ILLEGAL vs. LEGAL immigration.
I fear that some liberals tend to take the political short-hand to paint opponents of illegal immigration as racist or anti-immigration per se. Of course, there are some conservatives that are essentially xenophobic.
My position is this: LEGAL immigration is the lifeblood of our country. I think it's one of the features that will keep our nation young and ambitious rather than stagnant like the Old World powers.
But I think immigration into the U.S. historically is not unlike how a snake eats: One big meal occasionally, then a period of fasting. I believe our ability to absorb and assimilate new immigrants is virtually limitless. However, it is not limitless in the short-term. We either NEED to take a rest before swallowing more immigrants (if we insist on taking big bites), or learn to moderate our intake---limit immigration to a moderate pace so that our pattern of binging and fasting is minimized.
I have read the comments to Ambiva's blog. Naturally I agree with some and disagree with others. Here is how I see it. Grant amnesty to the illegals here, but they would be required to learn English and pass a basic test coverning American government. Before they could take the test they would have to know English well enough because it would be written in English. Upon successfully passing the test they would face a three year waiting period and have to maintain a good working record. The U.S. should not build a fence, but spend that money on hiring more border patrol agents enough to do the job. Punish corruption in the border partrol with severe prision sentences Most of these agents are clean but there is corruption. At the same time the government needs to reduce legal immigration between 50 and 75% for all immigration. We can no longer afford unlimited immigration period. I hope you have noticed I did not mention any nationality because they should all be treated alike whether they come by land, sea, or air, from any direction. Let me close by saying we have to have an amnesty program for the illegals here unless they are criminals. There is no way the national governmentg can round up and deport approximately 10 to 15 million people. But we can seal our borders with sufficient numbers of border patrol agents and modern surveillance techniques.